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What is the Purpose of WorkPlane Automatically Changing?
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* February 26, 2013, 10:57:36 AM
You know that warning we always get when selecting a 2D Object, when in 2D Selector Mode:

"Selecting the object in the 2D mode changes the drawing's WorkPlane.
Do you want to continue?"

What is the purpose of that?  Not the purpose of the warning; what is the purpose of the behavior ?

And, how can we get rid of the behavior?  Do we want to get rid of the behavior?

The behavior doesn't make sense to me (when evidenced with the Grid turned on); especially with the Grid turned on and Snap To Grid activated.  Plus:  I can't figure out any rhyme or reason as to where the WorkPlane (as evidenced by the Grid moving) relocates to; the relocation Origin seems arbitrary to me.

Thanks, Alvin
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 11:09:00 AM by Alvin Gregorio »

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---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* February 26, 2013, 11:23:07 AM
#1
That only occurs when the object you are selecting is not on the current Workplane.

1. The purpose is to let you know that if you continue... you will be switching Workplanes.

2. You can get rid of the behavior by:
a. Always keeping the Selector in 2D mode.
b. Always drawing on the same Workplane.
c. Turn off the warning (has drawbacks IMO).

3. This is one of the few "warning" messages that I keep active.

Not sure if that answers all your questions or not... but hopefully a couple.  :)

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* February 26, 2013, 11:32:28 AM
#2
That only occurs when the object you are selecting is not on the current Workplane.

1. The purpose is to let you know that if you continue... you will be switching Workplanes.

2. You can get rid of the behavior by:
a. Always keeping the Selector in 2D mode.
b. Always drawing on the same Workplane.
c. Turn off the warning (has drawbacks IMO).

3. This is one of the few "warning" messages that I keep active.

Not sure if that answers all your questions or not... but hopefully a couple.  :)

Hi Greg.  Thanks for the Reply.

Missed it a little bit.  The behavior I was referring to isn't "what was the purpose of the warning".

The behavior and what I was asking what was/is:  "What is the purpose of the WorkPlane changing when we Select a 2D Object with the Selector in 2D Mode?" (you can imagine how much of an annoyance this is for someone- drawing in 2D only- that has the Grid turned on, and is drawing by Snapping To Grid while also doing some Selecting/Moving/Editing).

[can you give my original question a closer re-read, please?]
----
Let's give that a shot.  Thanks, Alvin
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 11:34:44 AM by Alvin Gregorio »

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---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* February 26, 2013, 12:02:17 PM
#3
TC has to change Workplanes when you select an object on a Workplane that is different from the one you are working on. Picture it this way.... can you go to the second floor in your house and get something... while still remaining on the first floor? You left the current Workplane (first floor) to get something on another Workplane (second floor).

I guess someone else will have to answer this... let's give that a shot.

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* February 26, 2013, 12:10:44 PM
#4
TC has to change Workplanes when you select an object on a different Workplane than the one you are working on. Picture it this way.... can you go to the second floor in your house and get something... while still remaining on the first floor? You left the current Workplane (first floor) to get something on another Workplane (second floor).

I guess someone else will have to answer this... let's give that a shot.

Yes, I see that if we are talking about the "Z"-Axis.  But I can't seem to figure out the purpose of the WorkPlane changing if all entities are 2D, drawn at the "Z"-coordinate equalling "0".  Basically, the WorkPlane doesn't change "up" or "down" when the behavior (as stated in the original Post) occurs; it is simply the Origin that changes- "Z" still equals "0".

----
Yes, I'd be interested if anyone else had an opinion on why "they" designed the WorkPlane (Origin) to change when Selecting a 2D Object- that was drawn when the Origin was in a different location, but still with the WorkPlane "Z"-coordinate equalling "0".  I mean:  What's the purpose of it?  I ask that, because I would like to exploit and make self-beneficial whatever the purpose is.

----
Thanks for the Replys Greg.  -Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* February 26, 2013, 12:18:48 PM
#5
No... two workplanes can be on Z=0.... up or down has nothing to do with it.

Edit - Let's try this. Workplane #1 is your living room. Workplane #2 is you kitchen (same floor I hope). Different Workplanes...
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 12:21:15 PM by GregT »

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* February 26, 2013, 12:22:18 PM
#6
I think I get it.

Basically for the reason you described, Greg (with your floor-levels of a house analogy in a previous Post), this behavior is functional, useful, and necessary.

The program-writers just didn't write in a way of the behavior not occurring when working with 2D only Objects created on a "Z" equals "0" WorkPlane.  I just don't see any purpose it serves when working with 2D only Objects created on a "Z" equals "0" WorkPlane.
 
----
Okay, that answers the question for me; others following this Topic- who might be interested in the subject- may still have to grasp the rationale.

Thanks, Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* February 26, 2013, 12:31:49 PM
#7
No... two workplanes can be on Z=0.... up or down has nothing to do with it.

Edit - Let's try this. Workplane #1 is your living room. Workplane #2 is you kitchen (same floor I hope). Different Workplanes...

Yes, it's the word "Plane" in "WorkPlane" that's a bit confusing.

I mean:  If I have a sheet of paper that I am drawing on, that sheet of paper has a plane- the surface (it actually has 6 planes, but I won't go into that).  And that plane (surface) has an Origin at say...  the center of the sheet.  If I move that sheet of paper- and thereby the plane along with it- relative to the sheet, the Origin stays the same.  But relative to the plane of the surface it was on (the actual table-top, for instance), the sheets Origin has changed, though its plane has not.

(note that I am using the word "plane" here; not to be confused with the CAD terminology "WorkPlane")

----
I get it.  Still don't see the purpose of it when working in 2D only; but I get it.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* February 26, 2013, 12:33:09 PM
#8
Workplane 1 - 0,0,0 is in living room at the center of the fireplace.

Workplane 2 - 0,0,0 is in the kitchen at sink.

The geometry on each Workplane is referenced from the origin of that Workplane.

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* February 26, 2013, 12:37:35 PM
#9
One more thing (I/you all hope) on this Topic, then I'll be done.

When drawing in 2D only- we are likely intending to draw only on the World WorkPlane- "WorkPlane By World".  It's when we intentionally or unintentionally (there's a few ways that can happen, if we're not careful) create a new WorkPlane (even when that WorkPlane's "Z"-coordinate is still "0"), when this behavior (as stated in the original Post, this Topic) can occur/occurs.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* February 26, 2013, 12:39:42 PM
#10
Workplane 1 - 0,0,0 is in living room at the center of the fireplace.

Workplane 2 - 0,0,0 is in the kitchen at sink.

The geometry on each Workplane is referenced from the origin of that Workplane.

Yep, I see it.  Still don't see the purpose of it (the behavior as stated in my original Post- not the warning, the changing of WorkPlanes) when working in 2D only; but I get it.

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* February 26, 2013, 12:42:55 PM
#11
I do intentionally, on occasion, have several Workplanes on the same z axis when working on a project.

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* February 26, 2013, 12:45:25 PM
#12
Shoot...  I always have more questions.

----
What if I'm working with a complex 2D drawing- all Objects drawn on the Z=0 "plane".  What if, for whatever reason, a whole bunch of Objects all over the place were drawn on a different WorkPlane than the World WorkPlane (though their "Z"-World-coordinate being 0).  How can I get all of them to be on the same WorkPlane- as if they were on drawn with WorkPlane By World- without moving them?  So that when I go to Select them, my Grid doesn't move.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* February 26, 2013, 12:46:18 PM
#13
I do intentionally, on occasion, have several Workplanes on the same z axis when working on a project.

Can you give us an example of why that would be beneficial and useful Greg?

Thanks, Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* February 26, 2013, 12:51:49 PM
#14
Shoot...  I always have more questions.

----
What if I'm working with a complex 2D drawing- all Objects drawn on the Z=0 "plane".  What if, for whatever reason, a whole bunch of Objects all over the place were drawn on a different WorkPlane than the World WorkPlane (though their "Z"-World-coordinate being 0).  How can I get all of them to be on the same WorkPlane- as if they were on drawn with WorkPlane By World- without moving them?  So that when I go to Select them, my Grid doesn't move.

-Alvin

1. Select everything in the drawing.

2. Go to the correct Workplane (World in your case)

3. Use the Place On Workplane tool.

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* February 26, 2013, 01:01:16 PM
#15
I do intentionally, on occasion, have several Workplanes on the same z axis when working on a project.

Can you give us an example of why that would be beneficial and useful Greg?

Thanks, Alvin

As per my other post... everything is referenced from the origin of a particular Workplane. Just makes it easier to draw and measure in certain circumstances when a drawing gets overly complex.

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February 26, 2013, 01:08:21 PM
#16
I think some of the confusion comes by the use of the term workplanes when objects actually have different coordinate systems.  When in 2D mode TurboCAD uses the objects CS.  When in 3d Mode you are using the drawings current CS.  Changes made to the object while in 3d mode effect the objects CS.  While this is may not always be useful it is essential for TC to make these adjustments on all changes as we cannot assume users intent.






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* February 26, 2013, 01:12:12 PM
#17
I think some of the confusion comes by the use of the term workplanes when objects actually have different coordinate systems.  When in 2D mode TurboCAD uses the objects CS.  When in 3d Mode you are using the drawings current CS.  Changes made to the object while in 3d mode effect the objects CS.  While this is may not always be useful it is essential for TC to make these adjustments on all changes as we cannot assume users intent.

Hell... that's more confusing than my explanation.  ;D ;D

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February 26, 2013, 01:35:28 PM
#18
... and exactly why we call them workplanes.

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* February 26, 2013, 01:47:48 PM
#19
Shoot...  I always have more questions.

----
What if I'm working with a complex 2D drawing- all Objects drawn on the Z=0 "plane".  What if, for whatever reason, a whole bunch of Objects all over the place were drawn on a different WorkPlane than the World WorkPlane (though their "Z"-World-coordinate being 0).  How can I get all of them to be on the same WorkPlane- as if they were on drawn with WorkPlane By World- without moving them?  So that when I go to Select them, my Grid doesn't move.

-Alvin

1. Select everything in the drawing.

2. Go to the correct Workplane (World in your case)

3. Use the Place On Workplane tool.

I assumed that would cause those Entities that weren't drawn on the World WorkPlane to move.  I assumed wrong.  (I know that happens sometimes; just can't recollect when at this time.  I'm thinking in 3D Selector mode.)

Thanks for that answer to my "first day of class" question Greg.  -Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
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* February 26, 2013, 01:53:53 PM
#20
I think some of the confusion comes by the use of the term workplanes when objects actually have different coordinate systems.  When in 2D mode TurboCAD uses the objects CS.  When in 3d Mode you are using the drawings current CS.  Changes made to the object while in 3d mode effect the objects CS.  While this is may not always be useful it is essential for TC to make these adjustments on all changes as we cannot assume users intent.

Hell... that's more confusing than my explanation.  ;D ;D

I get what you were trying to convey Rip (quoted at top above); makes sense.  Still don't see why- when working in 2D only, which I oftentimes do- it's a handy "feature".   Especially when working with the Grid turned on; then the "feature" is just buggy... with no benefit. 

But than again:  If one is drawing in 2D only, one has no business working on any WorkPlane other than the World WorkPlane.  [I think what happens is- I remember doing this when I first started- when we're new to CAD and/or TurboCAD, we start messing around with some 3D features (like 3D Selector|UCS By Selector) and we unintentionally draw 2D Objects on WorkPlanes other than the World WorkPlane (X=0, Y=0, Z=0)]

-Alvin

[EDIT:]  Based on what Rip tried to convey, and on what is written in the Help File screen-capture below (highlighted), I would say that the TurboCAD Warning Message I referred to in my original Post is slightly wrong:

"Selecting the object in the 2D mode changes the drawing's WorkPlane.
Do you want to continue?"
-
I think it should say:

"Selecting the object in the 2D mode changes the drawing's User Coordinate System.
Do you want to continue?"
➜➜➜  Per Rip, in a later Post, I am wrong here.

I think that clears it up.  Or am I wrong.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 04:15:21 PM by Alvin Gregorio »

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* February 26, 2013, 02:02:08 PM
#21
... and exactly why we call them workplanes.

 ;D

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February 26, 2013, 02:13:31 PM
#22
I think some of the confusion comes by the use of the term workplanes when objects actually have different coordinate systems.  When in 2D mode TurboCAD uses the objects CS.  When in 3d Mode you are using the drawings current CS.  Changes made to the object while in 3d mode effect the objects CS.  While this is may not always be useful it is essential for TC to make these adjustments on all changes as we cannot assume users intent.

Hell... that's more confusing than my explanation.  ;D ;D

I get what you were trying to convey Rip (quoted at top above); makes sense.  Still don't see why- when working in 2D only, which I oftentimes do- it's a handy "feature".   Especially when working with the Grid turned on; then the "feature" is just buggy... with no benefit. 

But than again:  If one is drawing in 2D only, one has no business working on any WorkPlane other than the World WorkPlane.  [I think what happens is- I remember doing this when I first started- when we're new to CAD and/or TurboCAD, we start messing around with some 3D features (like 3D Selector|UCS By Selector) and we unintentionally draw 2D Objects on WorkPlanes other than the World WorkPlane (X=0, Y=0, Z=0)]

-Alvin

Turn on safe UCS mode in the selector properties.  This will prevent the CS from changing when you select or make changes to objects.

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February 26, 2013, 02:19:15 PM
#23
Quote
[EDIT: Based on what Rip tried to convey, and on what is written in the Help File screen-capture below (highlighted), I would say that the TurboCAD Warning Message I referred to in my original Post is slightly wrong:

"Selecting the object in the 2D mode changes the drawing's WorkPlane.
Do you want to continue?"
-
I think it should say:

"Selecting the object in the 2D mode changes the drawing's WorkPlane User Coordinate System.
Do you want to continue?"

I think that clears it up.  Or am I wrong.

Selecting an object in 2d mode changes the drawings CS (workplane).

Making changes (moving rotating, etc...) to an object while in 3d mode changes the objects coordinate system (entityCS)

The messages are correct.

This video gives a much easier explanation.  I hope...

http://youtu.be/uwBesElsTqM
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 02:33:49 PM by turbotech »

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* February 26, 2013, 04:12:24 PM
#24
Quote
[EDIT: Based on what Rip tried to convey, and on what is written in the Help File screen-capture below (highlighted), I would say that the TurboCAD Warning Message I referred to in my original Post is slightly wrong:

"Selecting the object in the 2D mode changes the drawing's WorkPlane.
Do you want to continue?"
-
I think it should say:

"Selecting the object in the 2D mode changes the drawing's WorkPlane User Coordinate System.
Do you want to continue?"

I think that clears it up.  Or am I wrong.

Selecting an object in 2d mode changes the drawings CS (workplane).

Making changes (moving rotating, etc...) to an object while in 3d mode changes the objects coordinate system (entityCS)


The messages are correct.

This video gives a much easier explanation.  I hope...

http://youtu.be/uwBesElsTqM

Hi Rip.

I watched the video.  As all your instructional videos, it's a good video; thanks for producing and publishing it.

Having been a TurboCAD Pro user for many years, and pretty comfortable with 3D Modeling (not Rendering, however), most of what was in the video was remedial for me, personally.

One thing I did learn- and learned from your earlier Post- is that TurboCAD is designed to:  "Selecting an object in 2d mode changes the drawings CS (workplane).  Making changes (moving rotating, etc...) to an object while in 3d mode changes the objects coordinate system (entityCS)"  I guess I've never become aware of that.

----
One thing that is still confusing, related to this Topic:  It seems to me that sometimes you want to say that "WorkPlane" is the same as "Coordinate System"; and sometimes it seems like you are saying that "WorkPlane" is not the same as "Coordinate System".

Can you offer any more clarification on that?

----
Also on a semi-related subject: You state that "Selecting an.... object while in 3d mode changes the objects coordinate system (entityCS)".  But it has been my experience (in version 11) that a 3D Objects "internal" or "inherent" Coordinate System doesn't change (as discussed here-> http://forums.turbocad.com/index.php/topic,11054.0.html; unless doing a 3D Boolean Add (as suggested in a Post in the linked Topic).

Any clarification on that?

----
Thanks, Alvin
(These aren't imperative questions; I understand both of the subjects enough to get by.  And with some dinkin' around in TurboCAD, it's becoming clearer and clearer.)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 04:26:59 PM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
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February 27, 2013, 11:46:17 AM
#25
Quote
One thing that is still confusing, related to this Topic:  It seems to me that sometimes you want to say that "WorkPlane" is the same as "Coordinate System"; and sometimes it seems like you are saying that "WorkPlane" is not the same as  Can you offer any more clarification on that?

They are the same.

Quote
Also on a semi-related subject: You state that "Selecting an.... object while in 3d mode changes the objects coordinate system (entityCS)".  But it has been my experience (in version 11) that a 3D Objects "internal" or "inherent" Coordinate System doesn't change (as discussed here-> http://forums.turbocad.com/index.php/topic,11054.0.html; unless doing a 3D Boolean Add (as suggested in a Post in the linked Topic).

Any clarification on that?

I believe only changes to positioning (move,rotate) effect the entity cs. 

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