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Fed Up
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* October 16, 2011, 03:09:30 AM
HI
Having read the forum for several month now on the various comments on release TC18. I was a bit reluctant to upgrade from version TC 15.2 which has been running fairly well on my Windows Vista Ultimate Toshiba note book. I use TC as a tool to earn a living working as a set designer in the film industry. So far with TC 15.2I have been able to provide the 2d and 3d drwgs necessary to do this.
A few weeks ago I upgraded to Tc 18 and patched up to 18.1. I have started ( tried ) to use it in the last couple of weeks, but have now gone back to 15.2. I have had dozens of Unhandled Exception Errors, Out of Memory and Error messages when I have closed down. This makes the program unusable to me.
I don't understand how a company can get away with making statements that their product works with certain platforms and yet doesn't. You pay the the money and end up with some 'mickey mouse' application that obviously has not been tested properly before release.

Thanks for nothing
IMSI

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* October 16, 2011, 02:39:56 PM
#1
Hi Axel,

I have no answers for you as to why you are getting error notices with 18.-1 , you should contact support.

Although I don't test with the beta team , I do test TFPlan and TCAD. So, I know for a fact that your statement about the program not being tested before release is NOT true.  I am running Windows 7 without problems but I am sure that many users are successfully using Vista and TCAD v18.

If it doesn't work on your machine and support can't find a solution, just ask for your $ back.

Jack


October 18, 2011, 10:32:05 AM
#2
For unhandled exception errors be sure to send them in.  Then create a ticket at http://st.imsisupport.com to follow up. 

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Rip Fowler
IMSIDesign LLC


* October 18, 2011, 03:10:15 PM
#3
HI
Having read the forum for several month now on the various comments on release TC18. I was a bit reluctant to upgrade from version TC 15.2 which has been running fairly well on my Windows Vista Ultimate Toshiba note book. I use TC as a tool to earn a living working as a set designer in the film industry. So far with TC 15.2I have been able to provide the 2d and 3d drwgs necessary to do this.
A few weeks ago I upgraded to Tc 18 and patched up to 18.1. I have started ( tried ) to use it in the last couple of weeks, but have now gone back to 15.2. I have had dozens of Unhandled Exception Errors, Out of Memory and Error messages when I have closed down. This makes the program unusable to me.
I don't understand how a company can get away with making statements that their product works with certain platforms and yet doesn't. You pay the the money and end up with some 'mickey mouse' application that obviously has not been tested properly before release.

Thanks for nothing
IMSI


I completely agree with you Axel, and the even more frustarting thing is that rather than patch and fix these issues you are forced to buy the next version if you want issues to be addressed. No doubt many of the unhandled exceptions/memory issues will be fixed in v19 which you will have to purchase again. I have purchased 15,16, 17 and 18 for the bug fixes, which really should have been free patches to be entirely honest...
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 03:45:10 PM by Strika »

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* October 19, 2011, 07:20:35 PM
#4
I have to say that I agree with 'bartz' and 'strika'.

I have enjoyed TC since v10, maybe even earlier.  But.........

Even though I enjoy using some of the varied features, tools, procedures, I still get more work done with one of the "other" CAD programs.  Even when they don't do exactly the same at TC, they still are close enough.

I have v18 now, but, doubt that I will bother to go any further.

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* October 20, 2011, 05:35:31 AM
#5
I'm with you guys all the way on this one. I have been upgrading also and am using 18.1 Pro Plat.
I WILL NOT be buying another version of TC unless they get us a useable program that doesn't crash or stall out on a regular basis. I really like this forum and the guys that give us the very quick help that we need - pretty often for me. I don't have to post my problem too often because I usually fine a similar problem or solution by doing a quick search.
I hate to say it but, Count Me Out on the next version unless this one is fixed.

Larry M.

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16.2 Pro   Windows 7 Home  18.2 Pro Platinum Build 73.1  19 PRO 64 bit Platinum Edition Build 54.2
TC 20 PRO PLAT Build 19.3
TC 21 PRO PLAT Build 22.3


October 20, 2011, 02:27:15 PM
#6
In support of Tcad I've got to say that I use version 18 Pro Platinum on both an XP and a Win 7 machine and don't find them unstable on either. I can't comment on vista as I haven't ried it on that operating system.

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Nick
(United Kingdom)
TurboCAD 20 Pro Platinum.
Windows 7 64 bit.


* October 20, 2011, 05:26:39 PM
#7
Hope this isn't a bit of a rant... but anyway...

Larry, I can appreciate your frustration: however, TurboCad seems to be much as a finely tuned race car - if you don't have it setup "just" right, you'll crash into the wall.

First, TC is not my "day job" - I use it for small projects for small customers...

Here I have it loaded on both XP and Win7 machines. The Win7 is primarily for testing - any "real" effort uses XP.

Having written that, I find that TurboCad (v18.1 plat.) doesn't often crash. However, it will invariably hang if *it* itself corrupts a file and then *I *continue to try working with this file.

As I've recommended before... like the 'ol DOS days; when working in TurboCad, "save different, save often".

Larry


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TurboCad user since PS v1.2
v24.0.26.3 Pro Plat x64
WIN10 x64 w/16G Mem. nVidia GTX1080(s)


October 20, 2011, 10:36:49 PM
#8
Axel (and others), with all due respect to yourself(selves), it all well and good voicing your frustration here, but you also need to make contact with IMSI in respect to your problems. What can be of big help is for you to post what your op system is etc etc. There could/is very well be a conflict with your op system and V18. I would make certain that all your drivers and including your video driver are all up to date. I guess you have done that? I also tend to install programs with anti-virus turned off. Have you tried that? I have found this the hard way with SolidWorks some years back and have stuck to it since regardless of the software. 

I can understand your frustration as I am a BETA tester of DesignCAD and over there, we had some release back, a release that was not upto it. Due to the response and I guess via the forum and through direct contact with IMSI, the problem was fixed. As for testing, we on the BETA program(s) are constantly at it using the BETA program daily and due to the fact that there are many different users doing different things, we find problems even after the program has been released. I also test some other CAD products by IMSI and I have had them grind to a halt doing simple things, but that is good. The feedback heads back to IMSI.

A suggestion also is to do a screen dump showing the exact error(s) and post them. I appreciate your concern over the work you do, but you can  trim the shot to show only the message you get.

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CREO 3 and 5
SolidWorks 2017
TC2019 Pro Platinum CADCAM
Hexagon VISI 2020.1 CADCAM
Christchurch, Middle Earth.


* October 21, 2011, 08:05:16 AM
#9
Have to agree - I doubt that I will purchase TC 19, unless IMSI makes many improvements to version 18.

I, like many others, have sent numerous problem reports over the years and always fill out & return the problem pop-up when it appears. Other than that, I didn't volunteer to be (nor do I receive the benefits of, if any) a beta tester.

And, like many others, I have purchased upgrades (for Platinum or Pro or whatever it is this time around) from many versions back, trying to get a program that is bug free or close to it - not so much for the relative few enhancements they include.

As to being a finely tuned race car...  I purchased a Chevy truck to do work. Not a car that needs as much time spent on its maintenance than in its use. I don't need a race car to haul my workload.

Please don't tell me to send error reports to IMSI. I have done that for years and it seems that I always end up paying (cash money) for the fixes.

Groundhog


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Mike Paul
aka "Groundhog"


October 21, 2011, 08:30:06 AM
#10
What people are experiencing in v18 I have no doubt is true, although I have found v18 to be pretty good, although there are things broken that worked before and I too experience the odd crash.

Just to be fair (but not to nullify your feelings, because I fully understand) I don't think the current business model allows for what we want as users (stability and full tool repairs before new versions). We are not alone either. Alibre 2012 and SolidWorks 2012 just came out and you should see the forums, especially Alibre with exactly the same complaints and then some. Already people are creating threads about what needs to be addressed in 2013 and about how things, even after decades, have not been addressed even though promises were made. It is really quite sad.

As for being a Beta tester, there is very little glory. Sure you get the program for free, but if you do the testing as one should it is very time intensive and can be costly in other ways. It is neat being in the know, as the saying goes, but that is not all it is cracked up to be. Volunteer to be a beta tester, maybe your voice and your involvement will be what it takes to change the system from within.

I would have to agree with Steve about making contact with IMSI directly. It is hard to tell if they read the threads and if they do they sure don't respond. At least in the Alibre and SolidWorks forums they have reps that are ever present. Things may not get done as readily as users want there, but at least they know they are getting heard.

http://www.imsidesign.com/Company/ContactUs/tabid/363/Default.aspx


* October 21, 2011, 12:49:28 PM
#11
In a perfect world we would have unlimited resources to address every single user need.  However in the real world we must be a bit more practical.  
TurboCAD has about 3 million lines of codes. This includes code from 3rd party development resources such as Spatial (ACIS), Lightworks, the ODA and so on.
Every time they make a change (improvement or bug fix) in their code, we have to make adjustments with our code and retest.

Testing is something we do on a constant basis. Keep in mind that we get reports from many users, this includes forums, direct emails, the support ticket tracker,  resellers and of course our free phone support.    Every single use case must be documented, able to be duplicated and prioritized.   Then the adjustments need to be made to the code and retested.  For every 4 things we fix there is a good chance that something elsewhere in the code breaks.  

Additionally when you add in things such as maintaining support on XP, Vista and Windows7 then add in the differences in the hardware, drivers and user's specific system software, anti-virus and all other system specific processes,  any one of which can have a conflict with our code,  the number of variables is endless.  

Our main objective is to offer the most reliable product possible.   The reason we implemented the crash system in 18 was to be able to provide a more efficient mechanism for documenting and addressing the worst of the issues, namely crashing.   So I would strongly encourage you to continue to send that information into us whenever possible.  I can assure you that information is being received and processed.


Additionally if you ever have an issue that you do not feel is getting proper attention you can always contact me directly at dtaylor@imsidesign.com












« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 12:51:54 PM by Dave Taylor »

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* October 24, 2011, 01:36:16 AM
#12
Hi
In a perfect world we would have companies listening to their custemers and not producing glossy advertising saying something will work when it doesn't.
I am talking about reliability. A trust that you can use this tool to carry out a process because you have been told it can. Not an excuse. Yes we have produced a very nice car. Unfortunately it has only three wheels. Oh you say, but you can sit in it and work the radio and turn the steering wheel.
You say you have produced a professional platinum program. I can no loner relay on this program to do a professional job, usually on a tight deadline. It might be nice for designing a jewellery trinket or whatever as an amatuer hobbiest.

PS when people say they turn off redsdk to make life easier. What does that tell you.
Disappointed
Axel


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* October 24, 2011, 08:50:10 AM
#13
As stated below IMSI Design is very willing to work directly with any user.  So let's try a different method here.  

What specific issues are you guys having?   Have you reported them, and if so where can I this information?  I did find that you had a few posts over the last year or so, but was not sure what isssues were pertinent to this discussion.





« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 08:55:55 AM by Dave Taylor »

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* October 24, 2011, 03:16:32 PM
#14
Hey Dave,

Heres one from me that has never got any attaention or been addressed:

http://forums.turbocad.com/index.php/topic,6459.0.html

Seems like a fairly major bug and yet no one seems to care

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* October 24, 2011, 04:40:13 PM
#15
Yes blocks as lights would be nice..I've asked for it myself on a couple of occasions.   I believe this issue is that DWG does not support them, but I'll double-check.

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* October 24, 2011, 04:42:13 PM
#16
Yeah im not fussed so much about the lights, the issue is if a block does contain lights, it actually deletes not only the lights, but the model within the block as well. It literally deletes the entire block, it completely dissapears

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* October 24, 2011, 06:07:59 PM
#17
This appears to be fixed in 18.2 beta which is planned for release very shortly.   John perhaps you could check it on your machine for me since you seemed to have been able to reproduce the result previously?

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* October 25, 2011, 12:56:08 PM
#18
This appears to be fixed in 18.2 beta which is planned for release very shortly.   John perhaps you could check it on your machine for me since you seemed to have been able to reproduce the result previously?

Dave?

Is IMSI planning to bring back an old “stretch tool” in the next patch as option?
You know, this new one is useless for professional drafting.
It is more than twice slower than it used to be; and in some cases it does not work at all.
I am working with v.17 and can’t afford to move to v.18 because of that “improved” tool.

Thanks,

Yuriy

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* October 25, 2011, 01:44:09 PM
#19
Do the beta testers just sort of free-wheel the new features?

As in testing in programming, it seems like there ought to be a set of standard exercises that the beta people would work through. If they can make everything in the new version that they could make in the old, then the program is probably ready for prime-time. Randomly trying things is likely to leave a lot of holes.


Mark

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TCW Pro 14.2
TC Deluxe 16.2 Build 53.2


* October 25, 2011, 03:35:44 PM
#20
Do the beta testers just sort of free-wheel the new features?

As in testing in programming, it seems like there ought to be a set of standard exercises that the beta people would work through. If they can make everything in the new version that they could make in the old, then the program is probably ready for prime-time. Randomly trying things is likely to leave a lot of holes.


Mark


There are some Beta testers that bust their humps finding and reporting bugs. Just because they are reported, doesn't mean they get fixed. All we can do is report the bugs... we can't fix them.

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AMD Phenom 1090T
8GB RAM
Radeon 5450 1GB
Windows 7
Redsdk  - Off
Editing History - On
v19.2 Platinum, x64


October 25, 2011, 03:47:58 PM
#21
Do the beta testers just sort of free-wheel the new features?

As in testing in programming, it seems like there ought to be a set of standard exercises that the beta people would work through. If they can make everything in the new version that they could make in the old, then the program is probably ready for prime-time. Randomly trying things is likely to leave a lot of holes.


Mark


The program is so hugely complex, that it is utterly impossible to test all the potential interactions.  That's just the way it is with something like this - the number of potential interactions increases exponentially with the number of features.

It wouldn't do any good for the beta testers to run through a list of tests - that could be done automatically using scripts.  All the beta testers can do is to use the program in the way they normally do, making use of those features that are in fact useful to them, and report any bugs or issues they see.  Probably half the bugs reported, by the way are not confirmed by other testers - not that other testers don't test for them, it's just that the configuration of the testers' computers varies enough that particular combinations of circumstances are very hard to duplicate.
Beta testers do attempt to make sure that bugs that they had reported and were allegedly fixed actually are.

As an exercise, try to add up the number of operations in the program that don't fail...  All of those were programmed correctly.  Percentage-wise the number of bugs is really rather small.  It's just a bummer when the one that gets you is important to *you* - often it's no big deal to anyone else.

Roland

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Roland Aldridge
Windows 7 ultimate, Core i7 3.07GHz, 4 cores, 9G memory GEForce GTX 285


* October 25, 2011, 05:00:56 PM
#22
I'm not surprised there's resistance. Nobody likes doing the "same old thing". But that is how serious quality control works.

You could probably use one of Don's tutorials as a baseline.

Mark

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TCW Pro 14.2
TC Deluxe 16.2 Build 53.2


October 25, 2011, 06:51:53 PM
#23
I agree with Roland. The best way for the members of the beta group ti test is to use the program in thier everyday enviornment.

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TurboCAD user since v3
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* October 26, 2011, 03:52:03 PM
#24
Yuriy - No plans to bring the old one back.  There is one common use case that was broken that I knew about, which has to do the breaking of hatches, does seem to be fixed. 

I am not aware of any performance issues, but will investigate that.  However if you can elaborate for me on that topic it would be good.

The improvement that we speak of in our marketing is the rubber-banding which is in theory at least supposed to make placement of stretched objects much more efficient. In addition there are many use cases for stretching that the edit tool in combination with the bi-directional selector seem to an even more efficient process.









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* October 26, 2011, 04:24:55 PM
#25
Many of our beta testers are using the product in an everyday real world and/or business capacity. 

As Roland points out it is very difficult if not impossible to test every combination of tools and use cases.  The beta team is an unbelievably talented group of users who should all be credited with helping making TC what it is.  The number of use case are as diverse as TC itself and the amount of analysis they provide is outstanding.  This also holds true for our dev team's QA department, who goes over the product in detail prior to send it to me and the beta team.  In addition they do use script testing as much as possible, where it makes sense to.

When getting ready to release a build to the public they are typically given a list of fixes to go thru.  We also use the beta forum to not only deliver the use case but communicate back when something is fixed or not fixed.   




 




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* October 26, 2011, 08:22:26 PM
#26
Dave,

Thank you very much for your response in this thread.  I am sure that your group is doing as much as possible to get everything working.

I am as concerned as anyone else about the program reliability/usefulness/dependability etc., etc.  But, I think that Don C. was accurate in making his statement re: business model. 

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