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Hidden line broken for Xref with layers using GDI
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* September 19, 2019, 05:24:57 AM
Please could anyone check this out in TC2016 and later versions to see if it has been fixed? I am using xrefs in an architectural drawing to avoid the known conflicts with the wall tool, and found some problems caused by layer management.
The attachment has a master drawing named drawing2.tcw, the other 2 files are xrefs inserted into it. If you compare the viewports, the plan and iso views show both files displayed in wireframe.
The planhidden and isohidden paperspaces do not show drawing3.tcw, as this has its graphic on layer_1. This happens when using GDI in Options-Native Draw on my machine (see signature for specs). The problem also occurs in model space.
Other rendering modes (RedSDK and Lightworks) work OK on this set of files, but the much more complex real life drawing is unpredictable, sometimes wireframe goes missing too. There are also issues between layer sets and layer filters which cause a complex set of xrefs, one with many layers, to slow the display of design director - it "blinks" several times before settling down. No crashes so far.
I prefer the GDI hidden line as it is cleaner, not showing hidden lines as dashed as RedSDK does or the diagonal lines across faces as per Lightworks.
Having read loads of posts on this, I know that people use xrefs for this purpose - should I avoid any layers beyond layer0 in the xreffed files? Or do later versions of TCad fix this?  I've also noticed that layer sets don't work well with multi-layered xref blocks to control visibility in viewports, that requires layer filters in Design Director - is this fixed in later versions?
Apologies for such a long post, just trying to avoid ambiguity.

EDIT: Attachment now works - v2016 files
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 10:11:26 AM by woodbutcher »

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TC 2016 Pro Plat 64bit
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4700HQ CPU @ 2.40GHz,
4 Core(s), 8 Logical Processor(s) 12Gb ram
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 770M
Windows 10 Home


* September 19, 2019, 07:03:45 AM
#1
Can you save the zipped file back to V19, as Alvin might be good at fixing this issue.

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Daz
TCW V21, 2015-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5.2 & Redsdk enabled, LightWorks rendering mostly.


* September 19, 2019, 08:16:51 AM
#2
Apologies, my original zip file has an empty drawing2.tcw, I must have zipped before saving. (EDIT: revised file now attached in original post) But things just got a bit wierder. Attached here is a set saved to v19.
When I first open the file all is OK.
Turn off all layers visibility via layers pallette, then all on again, right hand cube changes to a wireframe while left stays HL in isohidden viewport and model space under hidden line render (both cubes visible in wireframe MS and iso PS)
Then all layers off and on again, LEFT cube disappears (from drawing1.tcw, on layer 0 in that file)
Then turn all on and off again, both cubes visible again in HL.  :-X
I'm going to try again with v2016 files to see what in the wide world of sport is going on.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 10:13:02 AM by woodbutcher »

Logged
TC 2016 Pro Plat 64bit
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4700HQ CPU @ 2.40GHz,
4 Core(s), 8 Logical Processor(s) 12Gb ram
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 770M
Windows 10 Home


* September 19, 2019, 09:17:47 AM
#3
So the plot thickens. The v2016 files seem to act in much the same way, but this is with the TCv19.zip version.
I have isohidden paperspace open in Drawing2.tcw, 2 cubes showing in Hidden Line.
The viewport has "Override layers visibility" checked
Native Draw is GDI
In the Layer Palette, turn off layer "Left" - left cube turns to wireframe
Layer "Left" back on - left cube HL again - i.e. both cubes now HL
In this order, layer 0, Left, Drawing3|Layer_0 OFF - nothing displays (viewport is on Layer 0)
Layer 0 ON - Left cube = WF Right cube = blank
Left ON - Left cube = HL Right cube = blank
D3|L0 ON - Left cube = HL Right cube = WF
D3|L0, Left, 0 OFF then D3|L0, Left, 0 ON - Left cube = blank Right cube = HL
D3|L0, Left OFF - Left cube = HL Right cube = blank
Left, D3|L0 ON - Both cubes Hidden Line

So it is possible to get this to work, but so random as to not be practical. It may just be a v2016 bug that no-one came across, or found a work around for, but at least I hope this saves anyone else running into a dead end with a complex drawing. I guess the moral is to test any new technique on a simple model before committing.
How do other people manage an architectural job with multiple storeys and before and after versions of openings etc? I intend to carry on with xrefs but only in wireframe, and explode viewports from those external files for hidden line perspectives.


Logged
TC 2016 Pro Plat 64bit
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4700HQ CPU @ 2.40GHz,
4 Core(s), 8 Logical Processor(s) 12Gb ram
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 770M
Windows 10 Home


* September 19, 2019, 10:05:25 AM
#4
I played around with the "base" Drawing2.tcw file a bit in version-20PP, trying to follow along with what you are saying the issue is.
That is a bit of a puzzle; should be fun and a good exercise, trying to figure out what's going on. Might just be a Bug or a TC limitation anomaly.
I'm sure others are more qualified than me to diagnose and offer input; but it'll be a good/fun exercise to dig into it.

Question:  Other than the two XRef's, does Drawing2.tcw have any other objects in it?  (I'm not seeing any)

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* September 19, 2019, 10:31:23 AM
#5
Hi Alvin, thanks for looking, no there are no other objects in that file as I was trying to reduce the variables to a bare minimum. I suspect it's one of those bugs which are too random to deal with, there seems to be a pattern of sorts, but this is a simple file. With xreffed files containing many layers I think it would get out of hand very quickly, and the instability would be a worry. It seems that Layer Sets and Layer Filters don't integrate well - I can use Layer Sets with viewports and they overcome the problem of new layers being added to the VP list. Any automatic xref Layer Filters ignore Layer Sets, the viewport only responds to the Layer Palette or Design Director for those.
Please don't drive yourself crazy trying to follow my route there, I'm sure you'll see anomolies if you flick the visibility switches on and off a few times.

Logged
TC 2016 Pro Plat 64bit
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4700HQ CPU @ 2.40GHz,
4 Core(s), 8 Logical Processor(s) 12Gb ram
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 770M
Windows 10 Home


* September 19, 2019, 01:44:03 PM
#6
Its easy for me to say but if this file is urgent work for you then can you drop the XREF files and reinsert those files back into a NEW drawing with the original base file for testing. Further that this takes away the complexity but it gives you a working drawing. At least then you can test the functionality on an uncompromised copy for testing. If this is possible then you can maintain all layers and layer filters etc, just remove any sensitive drawing aspects. 🤔

Remember too that not everyone has the latest version so saving back to an earlier version opens up the possibility of more forum users helping out.

Early this year I had issues with a large geometry based drawing ( 250-450mb+ ) and about 60 xref files, where after closing the file and then closing tcw the file and or xref files never released the allocated memory. This was reported to beta testers and development.


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Daz
TCW V21, 2015-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5.2 & Redsdk enabled, LightWorks rendering mostly.


* September 19, 2019, 06:39:06 PM
#7
That's a frustrating thing to try to solve.  Or just figure out what's going on.  I misstated--  Not fun; not fun at all. :D :P ;)

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* September 20, 2019, 03:37:08 AM
#8
Alvin - About as much fun as unpicking cobwebs. I just had TCad shut down 4 times whilst trying to bind an xref with objects on 3 layers, so it looks like the advice about using only layer 0 for objects within blocks might apply to xrefs as well, at least on my setup.

Darryl - The original drawing is not too urgent, I decided to work on a much simpler file to find a method that works reliably before doing any more work there. I usually save a series of numbered versions of complex files in case I or TCad mess up, I can then go back to the last working version or copy data to the current one. If all else fails I'll print from the two files separately. If I do find a way of reliably using xrefs, or find out anything useful, I'll post, with v19 versions.

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TC 2016 Pro Plat 64bit
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4700HQ CPU @ 2.40GHz,
4 Core(s), 8 Logical Processor(s) 12Gb ram
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 770M
Windows 10 Home


* September 20, 2019, 05:41:27 AM
#9
Wasnt till I read your last reply that it probably wont work. You ┼čaid "  bind an xref with objects on 3 layers, so it  ", if I remember correctly all objects should be on the 0 zero layer only when there used as an Xref. 😃

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Daz
TCW V21, 2015-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5.2 & Redsdk enabled, LightWorks rendering mostly.


* September 20, 2019, 06:11:00 AM
#10
It seems that I have had two separate problems here. One was importing xrefs with layers extra to layer 0, which may be possible with care, but seems to cause instability. BUT, the hidden line using GDI problem is a separate issue - I just found that it occurs without blocks or xrefs as well. In order to save confusion, I'll start a fresh thread on this, titled "GDI Hidden Line and viewports" once I've got a file to post. Thank you both for your input. (Exploding head emoji goes here)

Logged
TC 2016 Pro Plat 64bit
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4700HQ CPU @ 2.40GHz,
4 Core(s), 8 Logical Processor(s) 12Gb ram
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 770M
Windows 10 Home