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Layer Interdependancy in Modelspace, Paperspace, & Viewports
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May 29, 2009, 04:22:00 PM
Hello,
I am a long-time Turbocad Pro user and am pulling my hair out with this latest issue:

I work in 3-D solids designing miniature engines.  All modeling is done in Model Space, then the details and assemblies are done in paperspace.  OK, now here is the issue.  When inserting viewports in paper space, they seem to be linked to the model in a way I haven't seen before.  Prior to V16, I have never had to worry about what layers are turned on in the model -- the viewport layers are independant.

In my latest project, if the layers that are turned on in the model must match those I would like to see in the viewport.  Even more puzzling is that if I have an assembly shown in a viewport (using one viewport for each view, etc.), if I toggle the layer to visible in design director (or layer manager), then toggle it off, the layers in EACH of the viewports turn off that layer as well.  More puzzling yet, the viewports still show the layer as visible in the viewport properties window.  Even more puzzling is that NOW, in order to see the parts that are on in the viewport, the corresponding layer must be visible in design director.  Just when you think it couldn't get any more puzzling, this issue does not affect all drawing sheets - just those created in TC-Pro 16.

Currently I am at about 90 layers out of a possible 150 or so needed to finish the project.  I will likely have 30+ B-size drawing sheets -- each possibly affected by the above issue.

Am I missing something in TC-16?  Is there a toggle that links the viewport layering to the modelspace layering?  Is there an issue with insertion of new sheets?  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

A rendering of the project in progress, a freelance hit-and-miss engine in 1/4 scale, is shown below.

Thank you,
Todd.

Todd Snouffer
Littlelocos Model Engineering
www.LITTLELOCOS.com



[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 02:23:31 PM by littlelocos »

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Todd Snouffer
Littlelocos Model Engineering
www.LITTLELOCOS.com


* May 30, 2009, 03:27:25 PM
#1
I have also seen this issue.  However, I'm sure this has been going on for a while - did you skip a few releases to V16?
I often find that closing and reopening the file resets the viewports to correct behavior.

JoeM

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May 30, 2009, 07:19:48 PM
#2
Joe,
Thanks for the reply.  No, I upgraded from 15 to 16 and have applied the recent patch.  I thought I had the issue tied to the hidden line rendering style in paperspace so I tried draft -- same results.  This even works for printing.  If the render for print only switch is set, it appears that the viewport layers are not linked to the drawing layers -- until I print, then the parts disappear.  Checked several other drawings (produced in V15) and am getting the same result.

Tomorrow, I might uninstall versions 15 and 16 from my PC, then reinstall 16 only, then the patch to see if this sweeps the error out.

Thanks again,
Todd.

 

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Todd Snouffer
Littlelocos Model Engineering
www.LITTLELOCOS.com


* May 31, 2009, 12:52:06 PM
#3
This does seem to be whats happening on my machine at home on build 36.7
This is not traditionally how this functionality has worked.
Let me talk to development about whether this was something that was changed by design.
This is not something I instructed them to do.   I'll let you know what they say.

Thanks for the feedback.

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May 31, 2009, 07:46:25 PM
#4
Dave,
Thank you for checking into this.  I did a clean re-install this evening and confirmed that the issue is still there.
Thanks again,
Todd.


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Todd Snouffer
Littlelocos Model Engineering
www.LITTLELOCOS.com


* June 01, 2009, 01:13:31 AM
#5
This query is about the format of this particular thread, not it's content.
I've got a wide-screen monitor and the lines don't fit on the screen; I have to scroll left/right in order to read them. I've not noticed this on any other threads, so does anybody know what's special about this one?

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Gary Wooding
Win10 64-bit,
TC21.2 x64 Plat, Bld59
TC16.2 Plat, Bld54.0
TCC 3.5


* June 01, 2009, 02:21:09 AM
#6
re: scroll left/right

I'm not experiencing that in this thread, now. I don't know if it was this thread, but in one of them an image was attached that was linked to another site. It was presented at full size (too large for my screen) and caused me to scroll left/right.

I just remembered, it was this thread. I ended up blocking images from the Littlelocos site, so I could read this thread.

John R.


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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2019
Designer, Deluxe, (Professional, Expert, Basic), Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro (1903), 64-bit


June 01, 2009, 06:32:26 AM
#7
This query is about the format of this particular thread, not it's content.
I've got a wide-screen monitor and the lines don't fit on the screen; I have to scroll left/right in order to read them. I've not noticed this on any other threads, so does anybody know what's special about this one?
Probably the over-sized image.

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Hardware: 2.67GHz Core I7-920, 18GB 1333 DDR3, Nvidia Gforce GT 220
OS: 64 Bit Windows 10 Home
Software: TC 2018.25.0.41.0 (64)
Setup: UI: Classic, Editing History: Off, Use Choice: Off, Native Draw: GDI


* June 01, 2009, 01:48:43 PM
#8
After testing this on my work system I find that the relationship of the viewports
and layers depends on the layer state at the time that the viewport is inserted and
not the time that the view was created.   This is by design.

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June 01, 2009, 02:33:05 PM
#9
Dave,
Thanks for the reply; however, the issue is with viewports in paperspace, not with the views themselves.

If a sheet layer is toggled on and off with the Design Director while viewing a sheet, the layers within the viewports (which should be independant of the sheet layers) are linked to the sheet layers.

This means that for my 30-page drawing set, that in order to view any page, the layers that should be visible within the viewports on that page must be turned on in the model.

Layers on each sheet are the same as those in the model.  This is a limitation that I have dealt with in previous versions by naming my sheet layers (borders, dimensions, etc.) differently than the model layers (crankshaft, piston, cylinder, etc.)

Linking of the viewport layers to the sheet layers has not been an issue prior to Version 16.  I have assembled my drawings this way since about Version 9.

Please let me know if you find out anything else.

Thanks,
Todd.

p.s.  I deleted the link to the Littlelocos image file and attached it.  Didn't realize that attachments were allowed until I poked around with the "Additional Options"

« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 03:25:55 PM by littlelocos »

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Todd Snouffer
Littlelocos Model Engineering
www.LITTLELOCOS.com


* June 01, 2009, 05:14:49 PM
#10
This movie shows the steps I took to test this in v16 build 36.7.  TC15.2 works the same way with for me.
let me know if you are experiencing different behavior.  Or have I somehow missed your use case?

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 05:24:34 PM by Dave Taylor »

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June 01, 2009, 06:23:54 PM
#11
Dave,
Thanks.  From your movie, it looks like the relationship between the viewport layers and sheet layers are working as they should.  The problem I have is when the parts are rendered either on the screen or for printing.  Wireframes do not appear to be affected.

Typically, if I am laying out a number of parts on a sheet, I will copy the viewports from one part, then change the layers on the copied viewports to the next part to be detailed.  For exploded views, I rubber stamp the viewports and change the layers within each viewport to match the part to be displayed.

I have attached a series of screenshots to demonstrate the problem using the brass oiler as an example.  Files Oiler Demo 1 through Oiler Demo 4 should help clear the problem up.  I have annotated each screen shot to show what is going on.  They progress in order to show the issue.

Fortunately, I am just starting to lay out the detail sheets.

In previous versions, it did not matter what sheet layers were on in order to display a layer within a viewport.  My biggest problem is that once the layer is toggled on and off again, the layer will not display within the viewport unless the sheet layer is toggled on.  This will not work for more than a few sheets from the same model as each detail sheet has another set of viewports -- and I might be working on a different part of the model and have those layers turned off for that.

Hopefully this will help to clear up the problem.

Thanks again,
Todd.


 

[attachment deleted by admin]

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Todd Snouffer
Littlelocos Model Engineering
www.LITTLELOCOS.com


* June 04, 2009, 11:02:48 AM
#12
This query is about the format of this particular thread, not it's content.
I've got a wide-screen monitor and the lines don't fit on the screen; I have to scroll left/right in order to read them. I've not noticed this on any other threads, so does anybody know what's special about this one?
Probably the over-sized image.
I think you're right; the lines fit now.

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Gary Wooding
Win10 64-bit,
TC21.2 x64 Plat, Bld59
TC16.2 Plat, Bld54.0
TCC 3.5


* June 04, 2009, 11:46:08 AM
#13
Todd would it be possible to have you show me this via webex?
I am having some trouble duplicating the issue on my side.
If you could email me your phone number we can set up time to do this
at your convenience.  I think it would speed up the time needed to fix this issue.


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June 04, 2009, 07:58:00 PM
#14
Dave,
Thanks for the offer to Webex.  Since I work on these in the evenings, it may be difficult.  I will e-mail off list about that.

I have worked up a simpler file to demonstrate and have included a TurboCAD file and two screen shots here.  The file is of a simple model airplane carburetor design I am working on.

While viewing the assembly drawing in the paperspace tab, just toggle the model layer for one of the displayed layers off and on again to see that the viewports follow along.  This link is the problem -- the viewport layer settings remain unchanged, but the display of those layers changes with the modelspace layers.  This does not work for wireframe, only when rendering or rendering for print.

Let me know if this works for you.  (Or if anyone else would like to give it a try, let us know.)

Thank you for all your help on this,
Todd.



[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 08:00:15 PM by littlelocos »

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Todd Snouffer
Littlelocos Model Engineering
www.LITTLELOCOS.com


June 04, 2009, 08:17:06 PM
#15
Dave,
Thanks for the offer to Webex.  Since I work on these in the evenings, it may be difficult.  I will e-mail off list about that.

I have worked up a simpler file to demonstrate and have included a TurboCAD file and two screen shots here.  The file is of a simple model airplane carburetor design I am working on.

While viewing the assembly drawing in the paperspace tab, just toggle the model layer for one of the displayed layers off and on again to see that the viewports follow along.  This link is the problem -- the viewport layer settings remain unchanged, but the display of those layers changes with the modelspace layers.  This does not work for wireframe, only when rendering or rendering for print.

Let me know if this works for you.  (Or if anyone else would like to give it a try, let us know.)

Thank you for all your help on this,
Todd.

With your file, I see what you see with an already rendered viewport, but I have success printing to PDF with render for print only checked.

EDIT: But I can get your results in another test file. No good at all.

« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 08:22:14 PM by Don Cheke »

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June 04, 2009, 08:49:29 PM
#16
I have a movie of the issue in the works. Too large to post so I am attempting a change to get it to a size that can be posted.


June 04, 2009, 09:37:55 PM
#17
OK - here is the movie showing the issue. This does seem like a bug to me and I remember noticing it in my own work previously.

[attachment deleted by admin]


* June 05, 2009, 06:37:52 AM
#18
I would also like to say that I run into this condition also. If I recall correctly I don't think V11 had this problem. I don't have V12, but I do have V14 & V15, which also has this condition.  I don't have V11 installed at the moment to verify, but I'm pretty sure in earlier versions it worked like you would think it would.

If this is by design, it doesn't  seem logical to me. If the viewport properties says a layer is ON in paperspace then it should be displayed no matter what the design director visibility setting is at. Right now also when the veiwport setting for a layer is OFF then it's OFF no matter what the design director says. So it doesn't seem consistent - if a viewport layer is ON you can turn it OFF/ON in DD, but if a VP layer is OFF you can't turn it ON in the DD.

So, I also think it should be independent of each other.

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* June 05, 2009, 10:48:14 AM
#19
Thanks Don, good to know my plot to get you to start creating movies is working :)
This is a fantastic way to document issues.   The movies significantly speeds up the time it takes understand  and fix issues. 
So I'd encourage all users to create a movie whenever possible.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 10:55:39 AM by Dave Taylor »

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* June 05, 2009, 01:50:08 PM
#20
So I'd encourage all users to create a movie whenever possible.

Dave, can you point us to a concise explanation of how to create a movie?

Henry H

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* June 05, 2009, 01:58:37 PM
#21
Does this only happen with viewports of 3D models?  I was not able to replicate this using 2D models in v15.2 Pro.  I have over a dozen paperspace layouts, each with 2 or more viewports that have certain layers turned on and off to display what I want them to show.  I can turn all layers off (except layer 0) in modelspace, but everything still prints to PDF without a hitch.

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June 05, 2009, 03:10:37 PM
#22
So I'd encourage all users to create a movie whenever possible.

Dave, can you point us to a concise explanation of how to create a movie?

Henry H

It is a matter of using a screen recording software like Camtasia (300 USD). I just downloaded the trial for this instance and as much as I like it $300 is pretty steep. There are freeware screen recorders out there but in this case you get what you pay for.


* June 05, 2009, 03:15:53 PM
#23
I'm trying to find a better free one for you guys.  I thought microsoft had one.  There is an older verions of camtasia for free..but it only produces *.avi or swf files.

http://camstudio.org/

There seems to be some free converters which may solve that problem.  However I believe this forum allow you to embed a flash(swf,flv) file.

http://download.cnet.com/Free-Convert-DIVX-AVI-to-MOV-MPEG-WMV-Converter/3000-2194_4-10907618.html
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 03:21:29 PM by Dave Taylor »

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June 05, 2009, 03:43:54 PM
#24
Don,
Thank you, thank you for working up the movie.  That is the issue precisely.
Very much appreciated and a huge help.
Todd.


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Todd Snouffer
Littlelocos Model Engineering
www.LITTLELOCOS.com


June 05, 2009, 04:10:31 PM
#25
Does this only happen with viewports of 3D models?  I was not able to replicate this using 2D models in v15.2 Pro.  I have over a dozen paperspace layouts, each with 2 or more viewports that have certain layers turned on and off to display what I want them to show.  I can turn all layers off (except layer 0) in modelspace, but everything still prints to PDF without a hitch.

Tim,
Yes, the issue seems to have something to do with displaying and printing renderings (hidden line, draft, quality).  Wireframe and 2d should not be affected.
Thanks,
Todd.

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Todd Snouffer
Littlelocos Model Engineering
www.LITTLELOCOS.com