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Red Materials
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* July 08, 2016, 01:27:50 AM
Hi Everyone,
Since moving to the Pro version just recently, I have had a thought about an Architectural drawing that I want to attempt so today I set a few things up & quickly realized that I have no materials for what I want to render at the end of it?

So once again back to the computer to see what I could come up with as a learning exercise with the Red Stuff, as people appear to call it.
I made a quick model of a Column or Pillar which ever way you call it for a test piece & I found a few things that make the job very difficult?

As everyone will know already that in Red Render Manager that the preview of what material you are creating has NOTHING to do with the final material when rendered in TC unless I alone have this issue?
It appears that maybe this is NOT a Red issue, you can create some wonderful things with Red looking at the preview but when you render them, all is lost.
It seems as though Red is speaking English but TC is interpreting Italian or Greek or something as the results are far from what you create in the render manager.

Anyway, I did find a lot of useful things with Red today including the very narrow band width when you get close to what you want & have attached a picture of just a couple of differing materials I made today & I wanted to see if I could render it to an acceptable standard.
I actually made many more materials but just picked a few for the picture.

I guess it's pretty boring but people may want to add to the little knowledge I have with some suggestions etc.
At the end of the day after many hours looking at the computer I figured I had enough as my right eyeball is now looking at my left ear, so I guess that's enough for today :)

Any comments or suggestions are more than welcome.

Cheers
David
 

 

 

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* July 08, 2016, 04:55:13 AM
#1
Looks like you are making head way with RED materials. Keep it going.
Some of the wood grain looks realistic, some not so much. The sphere look good with the reflections in them.
As far as the preview in the render manager, it uses specific lighting and environments and render settings to create that preview. Chances are that those will be completely different from what you have in your drawing.

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TC 21 Deluxe, TC 20 Platinum, TC 2015 Platinum, TC 2016 Platinum, TC 2017 Platinum
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* July 08, 2016, 08:15:27 AM
#2
At the end of the day after many hours looking at the computer I figured I had enough as my right eyeball is now looking at my left ear, so I guess that's enough for today :)

Yes, things can get that way trying to get Red to do what one wants it to do.

Can I ask are these modified TC materials or your own jpg textures, whilst some TC mat's are ok many leave a lot to be desired,  i.e. look at their wood - Cherry, OK Cherry's are red, but I ain't never seen cherrywood that colour (though never been to the US nor Russia). 

As to the render manager preview, in its options, try setting environment and luminance to none, one can always click set defaults to get things back again,  I tend to do a first render using just three lights, low (dark grey) point  low ambient and low headlight, to see how it looks then I work from there.

Obviously people view things differently, so the attached may not look right to other people but I can epack the attached if you wish though the settings I've done may seem a little odd.

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* July 08, 2016, 01:06:40 PM
#3
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for the comments!
Jason,
No, not very realistic which I have to admit.
I seem to have a tendency that moves me away from realistic looking things but I guess that's because it is much easier for a newbie to make surreal looking objects as it doesn't require the major skills that are required for realistic looking things.

I guess I should pull my finger out & try to get it right, in saying that though I still lean towards the eye candy stuff?

Andy,
Yes, all modified materials from TC which I found makes things hard, I didn't know until you have just mentioned it that I can use my own pictures which will help a lot!
I just had a look at how to use the pictures, that's good to know, thanks for the info on that.

I also didn't realize that I could change the Render Manager preview options - DUH, I have just found that as well thanks to your comment.
I don't know much about this which is very obvious!

I would like to have a look at what you have done, thanks for the offer, how do I give you our email address without publishing it or do you just attach it here?
Let me know, the more help I get the better!

Thanks again for the comments, I have learned a great deal just from two comments so it's worth embarrassing myself with my shoddy attempts at rendering :)

Cheers
David


« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 01:09:17 PM by willeng »

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* July 08, 2016, 01:38:49 PM
#4
Hi David.

I don't mind publishing it here, where anyone can have a look and suggest a different or better way to do it, I've zipped it with the standard windows zip thing so will unzip easily, and it contains the textures used.

The only difference to the pic posted above is I just changed the textures to jpg instead of the original bmp (which were way too big to post),  the thing which may seem odd, is the way I have done the 'Texture space',  the 0.4 etc. force the texture be angled with respect to the object, otherwise as the columns are straight it would just be like a load of lines going down the column which was not the effect I wanted.

Hopefully opening the TCW file will automatically link itself to the images (not tested that bit though)

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* July 08, 2016, 01:47:19 PM
#5
Hi Andy,
Thanks for attaching that!

I'll have a look & get into it, thanks so much for the help.

To be honest nothing will seem odd to me as I don't really know what I am doing anyway?

Cheers
David

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* July 08, 2016, 01:55:32 PM
#6
I forgot to ask,
When using pictures, I notice that they have JPG, BMP, PNG formats etc,

Do you get different results from different formats or is there a preference to use a particular format.

Cheers
David

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* July 08, 2016, 02:30:34 PM
#7
It really depends on the original image, jpg's are smaller by using compression, but not always the best as the saving / compression by a paint program to jpg can degrade the image, though in many cases one can't tell the difference until zoomed in, BMP (and Tiff to  certain extent - I think) are a pixel by pixel representation but can be huge in file size, png are a good compromise between the two.

I use jpg if its from a camera (no text), and use png or bmp from scans or if text is involved.

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July 09, 2016, 04:11:21 AM
#8
Here is my input on Andy's file.

I turned off all standard lights and used RSE and RSL skies as this is a simple setup and good for both Raytrace and GI modes. Brightness quite low and set to greyscale so it renders okay using the GI standard renders as well and advanced which I used in the attached renders. (hopefully the Advanced Render Style is within the attached ePack zip)

I added a default cherry wood material and my tweaked version. Mostly the default materials are not good because they have no reflection value.

Fresnel is something I play around with and used quite a high value of 3 for wood. The higher the value the less of the Fresnel effect in the material and the more direct reflections are seen.

I added bump maps using the same texture as this adds more realism and more chance of adding reflection highlights is you can see in the closeups.

The Sky RSE has a major factor in our reflections and I always try to have matching brightness values as the RSL. You can for example use the Sky RSE as a global reflection increaser/reducer rather than tweaking materials.



« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 04:43:58 AM by Darrel Durose »

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 09, 2016, 10:34:55 AM
#9
re: …I turned off all standard lights and used RSE and RSL skies as this is a simple setup and good for both Raytrace and GI modes.…

Would the "Options / Render Scene Environment" and "Options / Render Scene Luminance" be the same as "Environments / Sky / Sky1" and "Luminances / Sky / Sky"?

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2019
Designer, Deluxe, (Professional, Expert, Basic), Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro (1803), 64-bit


July 09, 2016, 11:09:20 AM
#10
re: …I turned off all standard lights and used RSE and RSL skies as this is a simple setup and good for both Raytrace and GI modes.…

Would the "Options / Render Scene Environment" and "Options / Render Scene Luminance" be the same as "Environments / Sky / Sky1" and "Luminances / Sky / Sky"?

John, if I am understanding your question?

If you are meaning they are the same as in location, then yes.

With regards to their properties if we use those defaults:
The RSE "Sky1"is not the "RedSDK" sky so is just using a white background for intensity of reflections. This has not got the option to increase the reflection value.
The RSL "Sky" is also not the same as it is set to add colour to the render and also has the sun turned on. This will not give a neutral environment if using the Standard render modes but when using Advanced the White Balance can be used.

It all depends on what you want really. The setup I created is good I think for testing materials without having the sun or standard lights that would need to be positioned depending on model size. Ambient and any lights that do not create shadows (headlight) should be avoided if trying to create a photo-realistic render. GI modes should really always be used so light gets bounced where raytracing cannot reach.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 11:11:20 AM by Darrel Durose »

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 09, 2016, 12:30:30 PM
#11
So none of the "Sky#" environments are good to use, but it's the only place that has a "Sky" in the name, unless you meant "RSE_Sky". I don't think "RSE_Sky" is a supplied environment, as there is no thumbnail (it's not in the Default.dat).

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2019
Designer, Deluxe, (Professional, Expert, Basic), Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro (1803), 64-bit


July 09, 2016, 12:54:21 PM
#12
I have only found Sky20 in my "default" presets that maybe using the "RedSDK" Sky but I may have edited this to be using it?

I am not sure why they have haven't used it and some of the others as we should really as it creates a more natural variation rather than an constant white reflection as no image is being used in the environment map with a background image?

Maybe development could/should update this?

« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 01:14:52 PM by Darrel Durose »

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 09, 2016, 01:13:06 PM
#13
You could go to "Options / Environments / Load Environments…", then look for "Default.dat" at "C:\Program Files\IMSIDesign\TCWP2016\RenderSceneEnv". This will load the default environments, adding any new ones to your list. If you get a "skip/replace" query, I usually Skip.

So a new user has to create a new environment and should not use the supplied environments. In that new environment he should pick "Sky" from the Shader list and wing it for the rest of the settings.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2019
Designer, Deluxe, (Professional, Expert, Basic), Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro (1803), 64-bit


July 09, 2016, 01:31:07 PM
#14
"Should not use" is maybe a bit strong John as it depends on what a user is wanting. The supplied sky's have a background sky image. The true RedSDK sky as a background is not always something that can be "seen" with the standard Render styles unless the brightness/scale is dropped really low. They are better when we block between the camera and sky using a transparency panel and use the advanced render style with photographic tone mapping.

See attached the sky colour is visible only on the Left half of the render as the tone mapping can "see" the transparency:
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 01:38:16 PM by Darrel Durose »

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 09, 2016, 02:01:59 PM
#15
Hi Everyone,

Andy,
Thanks for the info on the image files, I have been looking at your file & have learned quite a lot.
Thanks for posting the file once again!

Darrel,
I have been reading through what has been posted since I last looked & I would like to say thanks for taking the time to show & explain the various techniques used, also for adding the files & the pictures.
This is very interesting & helps not only myself but everyone that cares to read through this.
The mention of the Lights etc has answered many questions I have & things I have been having trouble with.

Thanks so much for your input Darrel!

Thanks to John also for asking & sorting out all the obvious questions & problems the inexperienced user like myself & others would have & this tops the whole show off!
Thanks John

Thanks Again, much appreciated!
All I can say is, Don't Stop Now :)

Cheers
David

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July 09, 2016, 02:50:55 PM
#16
No problem

hope it helps a bit... ;)

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 09, 2016, 03:19:05 PM
#17
Hi Everyone,
This may seem like a stupid question but I do have a reason for asking!

If I have a number of individual objects in a scene, is it possible to assign "individual environments" to each individual object without it's effect on the other objects?

Thanks
David 

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July 09, 2016, 03:29:39 PM
#18
Why would you want individual environments for each object?

The RSE (Render Scene Environment) is a complete world for example when using skies. In RedSDK rendering this creates the global drawing reflection.

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 09, 2016, 04:16:03 PM
#19
Hi Darrel,
Yes, I understand what your saying about a world environment, I just wanted to know that's all, for something I am playing with that I found & not related to the info you have given above.

I should have started another thread really, but thought I would get a quick answer here which I have gotten from your reply :)

Cheers
David







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* July 09, 2016, 05:06:30 PM
#20
So none of the "Sky#" environments are good to use, but it's the only place that has a "Sky" in the name, unless you meant "RSE_Sky". I don't think "RSE_Sky" is a supplied environment, as there is no thumbnail (it's not in the Default.dat).

John,
the "RSE_Sky" might be from one of my test files cuz that's what I "always" name it in that category ;D

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21.Using LightWorks, Anilab lab 5. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100 and HP all in one desktop with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3


* July 10, 2016, 12:02:38 AM
#21
Hi Everyone,

I have attempted today after gathering all the great info in this thread to make some realistic looking planks of timber, from the old to the exotic to see how I went, I have learned a great deal from this & I am happier with the results even though others may not be?.
This thread has given me plenty of ideas.

One thing I did notice today is that my wife put this attached picture on her computer with a newer monitor & it was far to colorful compared to the old monitor I use, so I guess that makes a big difference as well?

Anyway here goes!

Cheers
David

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July 10, 2016, 04:50:19 AM
#22
Some good woodgrains there... all quarter sawn  ;)


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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 10, 2016, 05:13:58 AM
#23
David,
listen to what Daz is telling ya  :P
 Thanks Daz  ;D
To understand redstuff global illumination and work the materials all you really need is a ground plane and objects on that plane.
Redsdk calculates/attempts to render with photo-realism, notice I say attempts :P
I would use the 'Fluorsec artictect AV lights. these are supposed to calculate realistic lighting.
You can do what ever the heck  ;D you want with both render engines but I think understanding how they are designed to work is a good start. what I post here in the forums in nothing like my own personal renders so I understand your mission, I think  ;)
i did all of these renders in Deluxe  :P
TC 2016 works great with 3D warehouse models (sketch up models), you might get a few lighting/environment pointers from using these. Tc works better with sketch up files than it does with it's own native format  :P big improvement in 2016
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 05:15:49 AM by Dean »

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21.Using LightWorks, Anilab lab 5. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100 and HP all in one desktop with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3


* July 10, 2016, 01:18:06 PM
#24
Hi Everyone,

Darrel,
Thanks for that.
I made some mistakes & need to work on things a bit but I'll keep at it, it's all very enjoyable.
Today I am going to work on your suggestions for rendering etc to try to get a better understanding of it all.
Thanks again for the help Darrel, it's opened up a whole new way of looking at TC.

Dean,

Don't worry I am listening, I would be a fool not to listen, I just hope it shows!
I listen to everybody actually & try to take in what has been said.
I have been trying to gather as much info as I can & reading Henry's book & articles, Don's Tips, Johns posts, your advice, Andy's help & many other things.

Now you have hit the nail on the head, knowing "how anything works" is the key to understanding it!
I don't know how TC or how the RedSDK rendering engine works, I actually have "no' idea at all & this is problematic.

I come from a hands on working & drafting background & when it comes to software with no moving parts to tinker with or machine I'm lost & it's all trail & error to get what little results I get.

Darrel has given me a baseline to start from & that's a good start, I can only ruin things from there on :)

Thanks for posting the images of different renderings, I have yet to explore this properly but I am going to make a start today & see what I can accomplish in regards to this.
So many things to learn, it's great!
Thanks again Dean for you're explanation of things & the help!

Cheers
David
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 02:11:26 PM by willeng »

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