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View "Anomaly" Discussion Continued
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February 15, 2016, 04:57:25 PM
The original Topic Thread on this discussion, titled "Unwanted View Shift", was locked by someone.

I doubt that everyone that was interested is done with this.  So, to continue the discussion:

Here, on YouTube, is a little video that shows the occurrence.
It's important to note that the Examine Tool movements I am making in the video are very slow, moving very little.

-Alvin


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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* February 15, 2016, 05:46:09 PM
#1
Very well done indeed, Alvin. But I didn't see a UCS jump or an anomaly.

...Unless you're referring to the "Y" character jumping from one side of the Y-axis icon to the other. That's normal and means nothing; happens with the WCS icon, too. Go to World Plan view in any drawing at all, place the cursor near the bottom of the screen and "roll" it back and forth a little by holding the Shift key while dragging sideways with the mouse wheel depressed.

Henry H

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* February 15, 2016, 06:08:32 PM
#2
Alvin,

I really think we'll be beating a dead horse as this all boils down to one's own perception.

Even in your video when I think the perceived anomaly is happening.  I perceive it one way, I blink and perceive it another way, blink again and it goes back to the original perception.

Something to try:

Put a box in the middle of the shed put the word "Front" on the face on the same side as the doors on its own layer.  Select the box change it to draft render Similar to attached png and try the movement again.  You should not see the doors behind the box or the word "Front" disappear/display backwards.  Then hide the box/text layer go back to your front view do the movement to the point of the shift then unhide the box/text layer (it should still be rendered), you should see that the word "Front" is still correct and the shed doors are on the correct side of the box.

Another thing you can try, is make the lines of the doors black and thicker than the studs lines, change the line colour of the studs to a lighter colour.  It may help but again its a matter of perception.

As a side: what software did you use to do the video?

Matthew


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February 15, 2016, 06:10:48 PM
#3
Very well done indeed, Alvin. But I didn't see a UCS jump or an anomaly.

...Unless you're referring to the "Y" character jumping from one side of the Y-axis icon to the other. That's normal and means nothing; happens with the WCS icon, too. Go to World Plan view in any drawing at all, place the cursor near the bottom of the screen and "roll" it back and forth a little by holding the Shift key while dragging sideways with the mouse wheel depressed.

Henry H

Yeah, working with it some more, and really, really keeping my mind open to all possibilities, and stopping when I see the "anomaly" occur to look for every other possibility that it could be that would indicate that TurboCAD is behaving correctly,

I am starting to again believe it is a VERY GOOD illusion/deception.

Even at the end of my video, when it is paused, I can see another possibility.  One that would indicate that all is okay.  That is the image below.

_______

Then...  this really made it clear to me that there is no "view shift", or "anomaly".  I put that little "mat"-- the Group that is the black-outline polyline with the orange-brush and compass-directions-- on its own Layer.  Once I thought I used the Examine Tool such that the "anomaly" or "view shift" occurred, I stopped.  It looked like it was messed up-- convincingly as if the view shifted, the objects displayed as having moved, or something.  But then I changed that mat's Layer Order to one that is higher than the other Layers that all the other objects are on.   The fact that all was okay became plain and apparent as day. (That's the second screen-capture below.)

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


February 15, 2016, 06:14:14 PM
#4
Alvin,
...

As a side: what software did you use to do the video?

Matthew

Hypercam2.  Free.  Downloaded/installed years ago.  Pretty good and intuitive/easy to use.  Could have added my voice (and/or mouse-click sounds), but I don't like my recorded voice.  Also could have added those little "color bursts" at each cursor/mouse-click.
They might have a newer version by now.

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


February 15, 2016, 06:21:36 PM
#5
Alvin,

I really think we'll be beating a dead horse ...

Matthew

I agree.  But I feel like I might have exercised it enough to have grown a few brain cells the past couple of days.

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


February 15, 2016, 06:26:23 PM
#6
Attached is my latest drawing file-- with the "mat" at bottom of the shed.  In case anyone wants to give it some exercise.

Like I say, just when you are CERTAIN the anomaly has occurred, STOP.  Go to the "Reference" Layer in the Layer Palette-- the Layer the "mat" is on, and set it's Layer Order to "1".  POOF!-- the illusion goes away.

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


February 15, 2016, 06:33:45 PM
#7
I think one reason I was duped into believing the illusion was: As I was using the Examine Tool-- I THOUGHT I knew what the Camera was doing.
My brain said "okay, I'm moving straight down", or "I'm moving a bit down, and a bit to the right".
But the Camera wasn't doing EXACTLY as I was thinking.  Which caused me to be easily fooled.

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


February 15, 2016, 10:37:26 PM
#8
See if you can pick up this link.  I may have done it wrong but it is a 88 MB .mov file which I cannot attach locally.

I could view it by putting the url in IE but you can also download to watch.  Hopefully it works, but if anything looks wonky, let me know.

Removed Link
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 07:22:29 PM by Saltgrass »

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Clark
TC2015 Platinum


February 16, 2016, 04:04:30 AM
#9
See if you can pick up this link.  I may have done it wrong but it is a 88 MB .mov file which I cannot attach locally.

I could view it by putting the url in IE but you can also download to watch.  Hopefully it works, but if anything looks wonky, let me know.

Anomaly.mov is the file.

http://1drv.ms/20ABzpl

Yes, we can access the movie Clark.

Sure enough, a few times in it I saw what yesterday I would have thought of as "the anomaly".  But when I pause at those points, and look for the more likely scenario-- "what is the view now, if there is not a 'bug'?; is not an "anomaly?"-- I see that all is okay.

Can you do this for us Clark:  Tell us at what seconds-count into the video you see the "anomaly".  Please include multiple instances, if you feel/think that is the case.

In addition, I think if you did what I did-- make a solid-brush polyline "mat" at the bottom of the shed, put it on its own Layer, do your Dynamic Examining, stop when you see the "anomaly" occur, then change the Layer's Order to something higher than all the other Layers-- you might see that deception is occurring.

Good job on the video and upload/link.  That's handy.

-Alvin
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 04:44:42 AM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


February 16, 2016, 07:37:12 AM
#10
The video is real time, I took with my iPhone.

I mentioned in the other thread if you grab the video and pull it down and the front comes back down, you are ok.  If the back wall rolls up instead, you are seeing the anomaly.  In one part of the video I pull the front wall down twice, the third time the back wall goes up and the panning after that shows the door in on the back wall.

If the video isn't positive proof for the group, it will take you seeing the problem while you are actually working on a drawing...

The link will be removed in a couple of days.

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Clark
TC2015 Platinum


* February 16, 2016, 08:22:13 AM
#11
I watched the movie four times and kept my eye on the door. It was always in the same wall as the roof profile, which in a wireframe render  without perspective of this drawing is the only meaningful way to determine whether it's in the "front" or "back" wall.

I do see the problem quite often in my own drawings. Realizing that it is simply an illusion, I usually render the screen in OpenGl draft mode to straighten my head out.

One might define an illusion as a demonstration that you can doubt the evidence of your own senses.

Henry H

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* February 16, 2016, 01:20:58 PM
#12
Alvin,
...

As a side: what software did you use to do the video?

Matthew

Hypercam2.  Free.  Downloaded/installed years ago.  Pretty good and intuitive/easy to use.  Could have added my voice (and/or mouse-click sounds), but I don't like my recorded voice.  Also could have added those little "color bursts" at each cursor/mouse-click.
They might have a newer version by now.

Thank you

Alvin,

I really think we'll be beating a dead horse ...

Matthew

I agree.  But I feel like I might have exercised it enough to have grown a few brain cells the past couple of days.

No question I'm sure we all enhanced the grey matter between the ears.

See if you can pick up this link.  I may have done it wrong but it is a 88 MB .mov file which I cannot attach locally.

I could view it by putting the url in IE but you can also download to watch.  Hopefully it works, but if anything looks wonky, let me know.

Anomaly.mov is the file.

http://1drv.ms/20ABzpl

Watching your video I see what you're talking about.  I get the same thing when I use the mouse wheel push button to examine, I believe its referred to as Dynamic Examine.  It doesn't happen when I use the Examine tool button, see png.  I dismissed that as user error (my own) in handling the mouse. I don't believe it is a software error as it happens at random times.  Also, it has a habit of zooming to extents of the orignal view before I started examining.

Perhaps I should pick up a new mouse and see if the problem persists.

Matthew


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Just a hobby user.
TurboCAD Vr. 18.2 Platinum
TurboCAD Vr. 2015 Platinum
TurboCAD Vr. 2016 Platinum
PC - Intel i7, 3.2 GHz, 32GB RAM, Window 10 64bit
Graphics ATI Radeon HD 5700 Series, 1GB RAM


February 16, 2016, 04:38:28 PM
#13
I watched the movie four times and kept my eye on the door. It was always in the same wall as the roof profile, which in a wireframe render  without perspective of this drawing is the only meaningful way to determine whether it's in the "front" or "back" wall.

I do see the problem quite often in my own drawings. Realizing that it is simply an illusion, I usually render the screen in OpenGl draft mode to straighten my head out.

One might define an illusion as a demonstration that you can doubt the evidence of your own senses.

Henry H

I just wanted to say "Thanks" for patiently staying in there with us as we worked through this Henry.  This Topic thread, and the other one.

As you know, I flip-flopped positions twice; but now, when I view and re-view the example "movies" posted by myself, Dean, and Clark, I can quickly see the illusion.  It can be a tricky little bugger.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* February 16, 2016, 04:40:16 PM
#14
Clark,
   I looked at your video several times and thought I could see the anomaly at about 5-6 secs, and again at 24-25 secs. But what I think is happening, at least in this video, is that when you do that quick zoom out then back in you lose your reference point as to what is up/down. I even downloaded your vid and viewed in Window Media Player at half speed and still see it as only an allusion. The only way you can convince your self of this is to put reference marks as Alvin has with his compass layer.

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* February 16, 2016, 04:54:54 PM
#15
Something else you could do is move the shed center on the origin X,Y,Z position at 0,0,0 and set the camera target to center of drawing in camera properties. This way when you examine with your mouse, the drawing stays centered. As it is now, your shed is shifted about 40 ft in the Y axis, and doesn't rotate nicely as you would think.

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February 16, 2016, 05:01:32 PM
#16
I hope Clark doesn't mind, but I took the liberty to use a screen-capture of (the end of) his uploaded demonstration video to produce the image below.

To me, it helps to clarify where everything is.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


February 16, 2016, 05:02:55 PM
#17
I have run out of things to bring up.  If you put reference points in the real view, they will be mirrored in the alternate view so it won't help.

I just can't understand why, knowing the drawing starts in the Front view, when you are shown a pan which definitely shows the doors in the back, it could be misinterpreted.

Am I the only one who confirms the position of their drawings by panning to verify?  Even the tutorials suggest you check the drawing by changing views.  If you look for an alternate view which will confirm your belief the jump is an illusion, you can certainly find one, unless you keep track of the actual position of the drawing...

Its not really important any more, that is why I closed the prior thread...we were going nowhere.

Thanks


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Clark
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