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Sort Of Trunking Solid Summing and Fillet Problem.
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* July 18, 2019, 06:18:12 AM
Hi All,

I have a bunch of Solid Pieces that have edges that are intersecting and I am trying to add them into a single solid that can be filleted. I have provided the file as I began two days ago in trying to add and finish the solid together. The profiles of the lofts are also in the file.

Yesterday I was able to add them together but afterward I could not fillet all the edges. Turbo Cad was fighting me all the way. I got a long way with filleting in an order but it seems that turbo cad has a big problem with filleting when four edges meet (at least with the standard settings).

Today I tried the Trunking tool just for the mid section where there are overlapping profiles to see if that would help but the trunking tool would not do the overlapping profiles possibly because they were not a true trunk.

The lofted transitions between circles and polygonal geometries seem to be the root of this problem.

The other thing that I tried yesterday was taking all the polygonal profiles and exploding them into lines and then rounding the corners with a smooth arc then lofting between the rounded profiles. I had problems with lofting between some of them and could not complete the solid and so I did not get to try filleting the remaining edges.

Any suggestions on a method to add and fillet this type of complex geometry?

Best Regards,
Dean

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* July 18, 2019, 07:47:03 PM
#1
It isn't a "type of intersection" problem, all multiface intersections have specific ranges of parameters.   The factors that matter: radius of individual edges, whether that radius is within the range of radiis applicable to that multiface intersection, whether or not they can be calculated concurrently or whether one is dependent on another being applied first, and different sequences of filleting will give different results.  I'd uncheck the "round vertex" option and apply them sequentially, there's usually a sequence that will work when an all-at-once attempt won't, and you'll find the particular intersection and parameters that are stopping it.  Each fillet will reduce the number of edges that can be filleted, letting you measure your progress and isolating the problem areas.  Alternatively or as a collateral measure, add two or three pieces together and fillet the appropriate edges of that part, add those (assumed) successes together and fillet the edges that result after they've been added. 

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* July 19, 2019, 06:25:29 AM
#2
Hi Murry,

I have had to do difficult fillet orders before but this one is way over the top. In some instances the same edge geometry opposite the mirror axis does not behave the same and I keep having to UNDO after toggling Round Vertex to see if it will apply the fillet or generate an error. What a pain. I am making progress but:

Here is an instance where I can't apply a fillet to the flat top with filleted sides. I sliced the top then tried to fillet. I get an error with trying to apply different radius and trying to apply with or without rounding. In other iterations of fillet order I was able to get the top but then not all the sides edges will fillet. Will I need to sweep a shape and subtract this edge?




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* July 19, 2019, 06:31:18 AM
#3
Also at this point everything that is on the plane where the lowest fillets on the part end will not fillet. If I do the remaining two vertical fillets they result in an extended plane of a side that appears as a sharp edge that cannot be filleted.

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* July 19, 2019, 07:40:10 AM
#4
To fix the Top so that it would fillet I had to redraw the original profile which was two circles with two lines on each side. Then I had to slice the top of the part twice once 0.1" below the top and once at .050" which was in the middle of the top and the new slice.

Then I had to create intersections for the bottom and the middle and create two new lofts one from the bottom to the middle and from the middle to the redrawn top.

This was such a pain to get the top to fillet.

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July 19, 2019, 08:21:36 AM
#5
Hi Dean,

Before going down the road of the frustration of slicing and redrawing study the nodes that get highlighted when you engage the Fillet Tool and click on a "top" line/node/s.... As you can see I found out why it wouldn't fillet in the attached below from the second to last file you attached:
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 08:25:44 AM by Darrel Durose »

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 19, 2019, 08:49:03 AM
#6
Hi Darrel,

How do I get the program to display different colored dots? I only see blue dots.

It is a mystery how the program placed the 0.040" fillet where your arrow is on the green dot with an unfilleted edge to it without an error and required an additional fillet next to it. In any case I was able to add a .020" fillet where the blue dot on my program and was then able to fillet the top.

Is it possible that some other fillet that I did added the edge next to the fillet that caused the problem?

I see this causing a problem for tooling because If I have to add additional fillets that are smaller than the original fillet that I placed originally I will incur more tooling cost for using additional tool sizes and more machine time spent. Now I will need to use a .040" ball tool and a .080" ball tool for this project.

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* July 19, 2019, 08:59:02 AM
#7
I've been having issues with that other green dot from your image that I can't see on my program. It doesn't seem to want to fillet with any settings.

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July 19, 2019, 09:17:52 AM
#8
The blue dots turn red with offshoots being green when the Round Vertex is engaged. see attached.

Which version of TC are you using?


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Daz…

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TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 19, 2019, 09:19:33 AM
#9
On the other more frustrating avenue of Slicing, exploding, and creating intersections of the midsection. Turbocad is creating Broken profiles that have missing and non-intersecting and missing lines,splines, etc. Thats not good. One of them is where the other green dot is that cannot be filleted. The original profile that I created the loft from does not have any of these issues. It seems when I filleted the area around the same axis as the other green dot it created a problem.

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* July 19, 2019, 09:21:00 AM
#10
The blue dots turn red with offshoots being green when the Round Vertex is engaged. see attached.

Which version of TC are you using?

I'm using TurboCAD Professional 21 64bit. In this version they do not with round vertex engaged.

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July 19, 2019, 09:36:39 AM
#11
Dean

Looking at your first drawing before any Adding I notice this profile is not closed hence probably why it would not work...see attached:

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TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 19, 2019, 10:44:05 AM
#12
Hi Darrel,

Thanks for helping to diagnose this file.

That appears to be another thing that I am unable to check for. If I highlight the poly line I just get a box in my program. Is there a special selection tool to view in that way?

I have attached just the polyline profile from the original file from above by itself, do you see anything wrong with it by itself? I deleted both lofts before copying it into a new file and didn't alter it in any other way. I couldn't see anything wrong with it the vertices, they are connected when zoomed all the way in. it also extrudes an uninterrupted solid without issue. I usually extrude test profiles before lofting and when I rebuilt this file for the third time I checked each profile before lofting.

When I built the lofted geometries I was lofting to and from the same profile in different steps because I did not want it to be smooth lofts because I had to preserve thickness between this and another solid.

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* July 19, 2019, 11:07:27 AM
#13
I don't use Mac however in one of the help forums I saw that there was a command for repair profile. I checked my version of Turbocad to see if there was a command for it and could not find it. Was it renamed?

https://turbocaddoc.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/TMP/pages/37060693/Repair+Profile

I am thinking that if I can't see different dots to note broken profiles I will need another way to design with and that could be the repair all profiles before lofting.

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July 19, 2019, 11:43:24 AM
#14
That appears to be another thing that I am unable to check for. If I highlight the poly line I just get a box in my program. Is there a special selection tool to view in that way?

Highlighting open Polygons at the free ends in red is a new feature of 2019.


Jeff

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* July 19, 2019, 11:49:35 AM
#15
Ahh thanks Jeff.

In this file I have

1.) Redrawn all profiles in polylines and made sure to close profile as the last point.
2.) Lofted between profiles, From Profile to Profile and from profile to profile using first and last profile once and inbetween profiles twice. Does this cause a broken profile after the loft?
3.) Summed the entire geometry together in one step using boolean add selected solids (which I am not sure if it is the same as MultiAdd_VB6)

Result. Still have edges I cannot fillet. Therefore it seems that there are breaks in profiles even though I closed them all. Could you confirm?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 11:51:16 AM by MicheliDE »

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July 19, 2019, 11:52:37 AM
#16
Re: Checking Edit Tool...

You should be able to see even though the node has no highlight in V21 as option "Close" is available (Not greyed out) if the polyline is not closed. see here the V21 help page - http://turbocaddoc.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/TC21UG/pages/14319871/Closing+Open+Objects

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 19, 2019, 12:02:19 PM
#17
So what I found in my version of Turbocad is that Closing the profile does not join the ends of the profile. How is that possible?

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July 19, 2019, 12:04:41 PM
#18
Ahh thanks Jeff.

In this file I have

1.) Redrawn all profiles in polylines and made sure to close profile as the last point.
2.) Lofted between profiles, From Profile to Profile and from profile to profile using first and last profile once and inbetween profiles twice. Does this cause a broken profile after the loft?
3.) Summed the entire geometry together in one step using boolean add selected solids (which I am not sure if it is the same as MultiAdd_VB6)

Result. Still have edges I cannot fillet. Therefore it seems that there are breaks in profiles even though I closed them all. Could you confirm?

Your profile is still not closed. Are you actually closing it?.
Why not use the irregular polyline tool instead as this automatically is a closed profile which is a better option for that shape details here - http://turbocaddoc.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/TC21UG/pages/14320032/Irregular+Polygon

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 19, 2019, 12:14:31 PM
#19
When I was drawing polygons with polyline I was using the Join End points of Entity to close the profile. This did not work to close the profile.

I also previously tried snapping to the end point and this did not close the profile either.

It seems like both of the above should close the profile.

I will try the tool that you recommended however due to the nature that I need to design in having to close each profile to loft and fillet will extend design time because every time I alter something I will need to close all the effected profiles again.

I have been using this Program for quite some time and it seems that only the Loft tool is really affected by this problem. Other tools are not really effected so much.

I have had some fillet issues in the past but those all included lofted profiles. Never with revolves, extrudes, sweeps, etc.

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July 19, 2019, 12:17:10 PM
#20
Its worth noting that to not have the start and end nodes sharing the same location.... the "Close" option joins with a line between these points. See attached

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 19, 2019, 12:23:18 PM
#21
Yes I was allowing Turbocad to make the final line and it was still not closing the profile by itself.

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* July 19, 2019, 12:45:20 PM
#22
Have you checked for update of your version as it seems like you dont have the latest built of TC Pro.
You have 21.0.21.4

And the latest is 21.2.71.0 ( NB!! With start up commercial, but possible to take away after install )
http://forums.turbocad.com/index.php/topic,14338.0.html

Torfinn

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* July 19, 2019, 12:49:35 PM
#23
Hi Torfinn,

The thought had crossed my mind about the TC version. I went to the update in the program and it said I had the latest version but now looking at the build I do not. I will download and install.

Back to this filleting issue.....

So it turns out that closing all the profiles made less of the edges able to be filleted. All 2D profiles and the Summed solid are attached in different layers. In some of the attempted fillets the fillet bends between the sections of loft where each middle loft is the same piece for the end of one loft and the beginning of another loft.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 12:56:54 PM by MicheliDE »

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July 19, 2019, 12:55:48 PM
#24
What fillet size/s do you require?

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 19, 2019, 01:34:07 PM
#25
Built 21.4 was the master candidate but they changed that later.
Are you in RedSDK mode ??, as there was a fault with that built in RedSDK, 6 days after that built they make b 21.5 and the day after that again b 22.0
So, if yo are in Native Draw = RedSDK you can try switch to GDI or try to update to b 71.0 and see if the polyline close.

Torfinn

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* July 19, 2019, 01:54:42 PM
#26
MicheliDE, must you use two sets of profiles?

Henry H

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July 19, 2019, 02:23:21 PM
#27
Dean

Did you loft the mid section which has the same profile at both ends? When Lofts are added together there is a slight deformation going on showing up as extra node/s that should not be generated. This is where filleting fails as for example the front face is inline and flat and should not have a node there.... as per the first one I made where the mid section is an extrude.
I unticked degenerative faceting in the ACIS settings so I can see the more of the facet building like the diagonals on the problem areas.


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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 20, 2019, 04:24:37 PM
#28
There's a way of working around some tricky fillets like this in TC.  In the pic attached I subtracted a sphere where the faces met and filleted the edges sequentially.  Once the edges were done, I subtracted the spherical face with facet editor and the result is how ACIS' internal logic finished the intersection.

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* July 22, 2019, 05:01:23 AM
#29
What fillet size/s do you require?

Hi Darrel,

Looking for 0.040" fillets.

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* July 22, 2019, 05:03:05 AM
#30
Built 21.4 was the master candidate but they changed that later.
Are you in RedSDK mode ??, as there was a fault with that built in RedSDK, 6 days after that built they make b 21.5 and the day after that again b 22.0
So, if yo are in Native Draw = RedSDK you can try switch to GDI or try to update to b 71.0 and see if the polyline close.

Torfinn

Hi Torfinn,

Yes I am very familiar with this bug. Yes I have not been using RedSDK since I installed it. I think I had a forum post about this initially. Does the new file that I downloaded fix this issue?

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* July 22, 2019, 05:06:29 AM
#31
MicheliDE, must you use two sets of profiles?

Henry H

Hi Henry,

Yes I cannot use a smooth loft between these profiles. It must be blocky until I fillet because there are under layers of this part and I need a very high tolerance of thickness between the exterior which this forum is about and the other parts under it.

If you think I should not use the same profile for both lofts each I could copy paste each of the middle profiles and loft separately however I have experienced strange anomalies with overlapping profiles of the same points in the past.

I will give it a try if you think it might be a better result.

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* July 22, 2019, 05:16:57 AM
#32
Dean

Did you loft the mid section which has the same profile at both ends? When Lofts are added together there is a slight deformation going on showing up as extra node/s that should not be generated. This is where filleting fails as for example the front face is inline and flat and should not have a node there.... as per the first one I made where the mid section is an extrude.
I unticked degenerative faceting in the ACIS settings so I can see the more of the facet building like the diagonals on the problem areas.

Hi Darrel,

I'll try to explain what I did in the last iteration of the file.

Starting from the bottom of the file. Circle lofted to closed polygon. Same closed polygon profile lofted to midsection polygon. Same mid section polygon lofted to identical mid section polygon (which is the higher one in the file). Higher mid section polygon lofted to base of the "trunk" polygon. Two individual profiles formed that are the same as the trunk polygon exterior dimensions but overlapping. The left and right trunk polygons were lofted individually up to the top using the same method of loft from profile to profile and using last profile as start of next loft. everything was then summed with boolean add selected solids in one action. Then I tried filletting.

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* July 22, 2019, 05:24:35 AM
#33
There's a way of working around some tricky fillets like this in TC.  In the pic attached I subtracted a sphere where the faces met and filleted the edges sequentially.  Once the edges were done, I subtracted the spherical face with facet editor and the result is how ACIS' internal logic finished the intersection.

Hi Murry,

That is an interesting technique. I have been able to fillet that corner in one of the files attached previously. That was a very difficult corner to fillet!

Much of the issues I have been having with filleting at the moment are with the with the horizontal sections of the part that are where the loft profiles are and with the vertical edges that change angle when going from top to bottom of the part.

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* July 22, 2019, 05:26:51 AM
#34
I dont know, as i have never seen this issue myself. ( maybe i never installed that built ?, but doubt it, as it was the mastercandidate)
But my v 21 b 71.0 dont have any problems with closing a polyline, just checked to be sure :)

Torfinn

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* July 22, 2019, 05:27:28 AM
#35
And so today I downloaded the updated Turbocad file but I checked the store and they lost my key!

I still have my receipt for the upgrade from 20 to 21 so I need to wait for an email from support with my key to install the updated software to try.

What a monday.

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* July 22, 2019, 05:35:09 AM
#36
I located the key in my current installation. Will use to reinstall the latest TC 21 version...

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* July 22, 2019, 06:17:06 AM
#37
Hi All,

I updated my version to the recommended build from the link.

I then went all the way back to lofting from each 2D profile.

In doing so I found that this newer build of Turbocad is behaving weird for at least one of the profiles. I have attached the profile here. I have rebuilt the profile a few times and performed an extrude test on it. In the extrude test it does not recognize the profile as a continuous profile. I tried joining this profile and it will not. I inspected all the junctions between the arc and polyline and they are fine.

When trying to loft to or from this profile it gives me an error. I did not have this issue in the previous version that I was using.

Is there a new command that is needed to make this a continuous profile in this version of TC that was not needed previously to extrude or loft the object?

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* July 22, 2019, 07:30:23 AM
#38
BTW I have platinum not just pro... I just looked at my old receipt.

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* July 22, 2019, 12:36:52 PM
#39
So I have upgraded to TC Plat 2019. It is still a difficult object to put together. I have noticed that multi add does not recognize that these are conjoined solids anymore when they are no ACIS and I must manually explode them before adding or add them together one at a time with boolean add. There are more options for fillet but it seems less edges will fillet.

All of my profiles are still closed however even with more options it is difficult to say which to use and even after trying different options it is still very difficult.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 12:40:02 PM by MicheliDE »

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* July 23, 2019, 06:10:56 AM
#40
I'm not sure that this completely simplifies down to this statement however I don't know much more complexity about this program than this.

It seems that there is a problem filleting between two loft profiles that have splines in the profile. The fillet appears to get stuck there.

Attached is another example where I cannot fillet the remaining horizontal areas between the lofted profiles. I was able to loft between a polygon and an extruded profile and was able to fillet between them however I was not able to fillet between a lofted profile that had rounded edges because it was intersected and lofted from a solid that had vertical fillets.

It seems that if I could pre-round all the instances of four edges that intersect a the same point it would help this problem dramatically because filleting an edge at a time does not round these type of corners.

I suppose I have to place a sphere at every intersection that cannot be filleted?

If I am going to and from the same loft shouldn't the edges all intersect because they start and end with the same profile edges?

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* July 23, 2019, 09:57:37 AM
#41
I'm not sure that this completely simplifies down to this statement however I don't know much more complexity about this program than this.

It seems that there is a problem filleting between two loft profiles that have splines in the profile. The fillet appears to get stuck there.

Attached is another example where I cannot fillet the remaining horizontal areas between the lofted profiles. I was able to loft between a polygon and an extruded profile and was able to fillet between them however I was not able to fillet between a lofted profile that had rounded edges because it was intersected and lofted from a solid that had vertical fillets.

It seems that if I could pre-round all the instances of four edges that intersect a the same point it would help this problem dramatically because filleting an edge at a time does not round these type of corners.

I suppose I have to place a sphere at every intersection that cannot be filleted?

If I am going to and from the same loft shouldn't the edges all intersect because they start and end with the same profile edges?

Hi Dean,
Can you explain a lot  ;D more in detail what to do with the 2d profiles that you posted. I mean, what steps are you taking > step by step  :)
Also, what is the fillet radius 2D or 3D

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* July 23, 2019, 10:29:09 AM
#42
I'm not sure that this completely simplifies down to this statement however I don't know much more complexity about this program than this.

It seems that there is a problem filleting between two loft profiles that have splines in the profile. The fillet appears to get stuck there.

Attached is another example where I cannot fillet the remaining horizontal areas between the lofted profiles. I was able to loft between a polygon and an extruded profile and was able to fillet between them however I was not able to fillet between a lofted profile that had rounded edges because it was intersected and lofted from a solid that had vertical fillets.

It seems that if I could pre-round all the instances of four edges that intersect a the same point it would help this problem dramatically because filleting an edge at a time does not round these type of corners.

I suppose I have to place a sphere at every intersection that cannot be filleted?

If I am going to and from the same loft shouldn't the edges all intersect because they start and end with the same profile edges?

Hi Dean,
Can you explain a lot  ;D more in detail what to do with the 2d profiles that you posted. I mean, what steps are you taking > step by step  :)
Also, what is the fillet radius 2D or 3D

Hi,

Of course I can, it is above but here are the steps again

"Starting from the bottom of the file. Circle lofted to closed polygon. Same closed polygon profile lofted to midsection polygon. Same mid section polygon lofted to identical mid section polygon (which is the higher one in the file). Higher mid section polygon lofted to base of the "trunk" polygon. Two individual profiles formed that are the same as the trunk polygon exterior dimensions but overlapping. The left and right trunk polygons were lofted individually up to the top using the same method of loft from profile to profile and using last profile as start of next loft. everything was then summed with boolean add selected solids in one action. Then I tried filletting."

In summary:
There are several files attached in this forum post. Some of which are just the 2D profiles and some are the 3D objects resulting from the 2D profiles. I am having the most difficult time applying a 0.040" fillet or even a 0.020" fillet to all edges and especially having trouble applying fillets where 4 edges meet as a single point.

This solid is the outside of another object that sits inside and for that reason I must maintain precise control on the size of the object. I cannot simply do a smooth continuous loft I have to do the lofts individually and each part must meet with an edge and a fillet must be applied to each edge.

Does that help?



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* July 23, 2019, 10:32:33 AM
#43
Today I have been trying to investigate alternate methods to construct this object including sweeping a semi-circle that is set back and using that in an additive or subtractive way. This is incredibly difficult to do because of the irregularity of the solid!

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* July 23, 2019, 11:03:29 AM
#44
I have minimized twist checked in my lofting shape properties. But in some instances the object twisted anyways. It was not that bad when I loft from Polygon to circle however when I loft from circle to polygon it can twist and it twists even with the minimized twist box checked.

What would result in the cleanest addition? Box checked or not?

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* July 23, 2019, 11:44:21 AM
#45
Using Prism instead of loft for some of the solids did not help with filleting.

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* July 23, 2019, 12:09:28 PM
#46
It is also very difficult to extrude and draft angle geometric objects to add them together to reproduce the shape. I don't think this object can be created any other way. If I cannot fillet a loft it can't work.

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* July 23, 2019, 12:27:35 PM
#47
The object base cannot be created using 6 guide lines.

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* July 23, 2019, 01:11:32 PM
#48
Using the most recent drawing you posted > "Object extrusion and lofting issue(2)"
I copied then lofted with use compound profile then fillet at .02.
> Are you using compound profile when you Loft?

> Concerning your main object that you started this thread with can you post the most recent drawing of that before any fillet's were attempted.

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Windows 7 64 bit HP > 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21,20,19 and 18.Using LightWorks, Anilab lab 5.  HP all in one  23" Touch smart screen with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3. Intel Core i5 ,2.27GHz,4 GB ram.


* July 24, 2019, 05:14:15 AM
#49
Using the most recent drawing you posted > "Object extrusion and lofting issue(2)"
I copied then lofted with use compound profile then fillet at .02.
> Are you using compound profile when you Loft?

> Concerning your main object that you started this thread with can you post the most recent drawing of that before any fillet's were attempted.

Yes I realized that when I installed turbocad 2019 there were a number of settings that aren't checked by default. Compound profile was one of them. This solid part problem was resolved. Still having issues with filleting the object.

I have tried
1.) Using lofts
2.) Using Prisms
3.) Using a basic Extrude for the center long piece
4.) Using different fillet types (this could cause additional tooling problems and expense for the design to be made later on)
5.) Open profiles and closed profiles behave the same when I try to fillet (between TC21 and TC2019) however it seems that there are less problem points with closing all profiles.
6.) The most difficult part seems to be the areas where four edges collide at a point.
7.) Filleting together three surfaces using the new tool did not help
8.) Lofting with guide lines did not help
9.) I checked each loft individually to make sure that there weren't any strange edges on the joining surfaces with the slice tool. None were found.
10.) I am either having issues with horizontal or vertical fillets on the model it seems that when I do one the other becomes not filletable.
11.) I still have questions about the loft minimize twist check box
12.)I tried lofting rounded profiles and ended up with horizontal fillet issues because the fillet tool was stopping at sweeps
13.) I tried exploding a profile created by an intersection.
14.) I tried using spheres and sweeps to recreate the object in a different way. I was having a very difficult time reproducing the geometry.
15.) I tried filleting as summed solids as well as an ACIS object, no improvements

Today I will be trying to sweep bandages around the edges and subtracting the edge to make it rounder to see if that helps. I would rather not have to go through this on a complicated object.



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* July 24, 2019, 06:58:01 AM
#50
It is very difficult to apply bandages to subtract the lower corners from this type of object.

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* July 24, 2019, 07:36:21 AM
#51
In Another attempt to make sharp edges more able to be rounded I tried creating a 3D polyline up on of the vertical edges then sweeping a circle along the 3D polyline. I then attempted to subtract the swept circle solid from the features of the main solid shape.

I found that I could not subtract the swept cylinder corresponding to the section of the the lofted Cyan part from the lofted Cyan part!

Why can I not use a boolean operation to subtract a swept part from a lofted part?!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 07:41:24 AM by MicheliDE »

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* July 24, 2019, 08:33:56 AM
#52
Then I took the solid into a subractive space by designing a box around the entire model and subtracting the model out the summed solid. This created even more problems however there is a clue. When I subtracted the model out of the box Turbocad changed the mid section which is the long section that has the same profile on both sides into a hollow object!

I went back and looked at the midsection before subtraction and it is infact a solid!

With the Cavity sliced into left and right sides I tried quick pulling to complete what should have been the subtraction from the mid section and it wouldn't remove it with a quick pull! Could it be that the ends are also surfaces? Did this occur during adding the top and bottom together? How did this get automatically converted to a surface when it started as a solid?

And I have to go through this and I don't even know if I am going to be able to fillet in the negative space when I wasn't able to fillet in the positive space.


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* July 24, 2019, 09:29:30 AM
#53
The Mid solid is a hollow solid that has surfaces on the ends! How does two identical closed polylines form a hollow loft with surfaces on the ends?

With a relofted midsection I tried multi-add and the solid still would not add all at once.

This time after the multi-add was used it generated an error and would not let me use boolean add afterward. This is another clue of why I am having issues.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 09:42:07 AM by MicheliDE »

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* July 24, 2019, 09:54:32 AM
#54
And so because of the fixed mid section I once again tried filletting from the bottom to the top. Just as previously I noticed that the fillet tool is creating different kinds of ends on two of the junctions. You can see them here as the ends of the fillet tool go past the Blue closed polygon profile. Two are pointy on one side and four are pointy in the middle and one of the four that are pointy in the middle has four dots that could be filleted on it. That is so weird and I know that the two pointy fillets will not produce a round corner. All of these fillets were made with 0.040" Start radius and the corner fillet button pressed.

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* July 24, 2019, 10:02:26 AM
#55
Going back to the Negative space attempt. I can no longer subtract the summed solid from the surrounding box that I created, error. I also cannot slice the summed solid in either the part or ACIS form. I cannot subtract either part or ACIS from the surrounding box.

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* July 24, 2019, 10:10:03 AM
#56
And so even though I replaced the mid section with a new loft that was a solid it has still caused a problem when trying to subtract from the surround box solid that I created.

I am able to subtract all the other lofts from the surrounding box except the mid section. I am also still unable to slice the surrounding box with the top and bottom lofts already subtracted.

The bounding box and all of the lofts do slice if I separate the slice into top, midsection, and bottom and the bounding box.

Another file is attached showing current step.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 10:21:09 AM by MicheliDE »

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* July 24, 2019, 10:29:30 AM
#57
Then there was an insufficient memory error when rendering all these pieces and turbocad crashed. Good thing i saved before trying to subtract.

Also In the negative space I can see that there are problems with some of the edges. The edges are visibly thicker than others and they pixelate more when you are moving where you are viewing the solid from.

How is it that I was able to subtract out the top and the bottom before when my mid section had a problem but now I can't subtract out the top. This would mean that the way that the top was added even though neither method generated an error is now causing me a subtraction problem!

So now I have to take the subtraction from the surrounding box with the bad mid section and attempt to take the new mid section and subtract it from it.

Neither mid section will subtract out of the surrounding box. Now I have to slice the box and pull the box from one side to the other!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 11:08:08 AM by MicheliDE »

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* July 24, 2019, 11:19:29 AM
#58
Dean,
I haven't look at the drawing yet that you posted in Reply#49 but my first guess is that most of these problems that you are having might be that TC is not internally calculating the object as an ACIS solid object even though it's being reported as one, I know, a bit quirky  ;D
I haven't read all of your posts but did you try starting over and make sure to use compound profiles on any open lofted profiles.
I would recommend staying away from the Quick Pull tool when working with a complex object, It's also a bit quirky....

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Windows 7 64 bit HP > 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21,20,19 and 18.Using LightWorks, Anilab lab 5.  HP all in one  23" Touch smart screen with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3. Intel Core i5 ,2.27GHz,4 GB ram.


* July 24, 2019, 11:26:10 AM
#59
What I do is I save files at critical points so I can go to and from any point to any other point and introduce objects from another drawing. This usually helps to get further.

At this point was unable to subtract any more from the two halves. the mid section will no go away and I cannot even slice the two halves either.

I will go back to the lofts with the new mid section profiles to re build all the profiles again.

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* July 25, 2019, 05:34:06 AM
#60
Thanks for your help everyone I was able to move forward on this.

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* July 26, 2019, 02:57:37 PM
#61
Dean, if you pass a section through one of the circle-to-polygon transition lofts of the file you originally posted, there's a convex region of the surface that restricts the cross-section area.  I experimented with the shape, rebuilding the main body and reconstructing the transition with a faceted loft that's had tapered fillets applied, blended into the edges of the main body that have .04" fillets.  The fillets have been applied sequentially and the order is slightly different to each. One has had the tapered fillets applied in the same operation as the .04" edges that they flow into, the other has had those fillets applied in separate operations.  The fillets can't be applied in one global operation, successive fillets are dependent on those preceding.  I built the models in V2015, V21 got crashier and more frustrating the further in I got.   
Their part trees give some insight into the filleting sequences and the profiles I built the lofts with are in a hidden category.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 03:05:36 PM by murray dickinson »

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* July 28, 2019, 05:53:34 AM
#62
Hi Murry,

I attempted uploading the file that you attached in TC2019 and it sent the program into a not responding state for quite some time but it finally exited. It certainly seems like there is some trouble with this solid as you have found. I see that you are experimenting with a shape that does not have such a pronounced cylinder section. I think I am having edge problems that are being caused by problems resulting from snapping profiles to other profiles.

In the side by side profiles from the original file I have gone back and inspected each junction between the horizontal profiles and when they are 2D profiles they line up perfectly however as soon as I loft them there are slight gaps that are forming between the solids. I am not sure why this is but it requires zooming all the way into them to see them. This appears to be what is causing my filleting issues.

I think am experiencing the double edged sword of using guide lines in a loft. The result is that the guide lines help the solid become more mirror able however they seem to make the edges not square. Either I do not use guide lines and end up with a slight twist or I use guide lines and end up with unsquare edges. It seems that I can't add the guide lines in the corners of the lofted polygon either because that interferes with the profile.

What difficulty.

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* July 28, 2019, 08:45:16 PM
#63
When objects are built and saved using the part tree, the file is a "recipe" for the part, and TC rebuilds it following the order and parameters of the part tree when it's opened.  That's what takes a while here, and by "a while", I mean that my uninspiring six-year 1.4GHz Celeron with the sole benefit of 8Gb RAM takes five minutes to rebuild it, but I'm old and patient, and that leads me to reply that I don't think it's got "troubles".  I rebuilt the basis of your part over your file, but saved the new construction.  I've just saved it back in 2015 to V21, and it opens with parts sound and part trees intact.  I think that the fairly acute relationship of circle to polygon in your original file puts a lot of expectation on the loft tool, even with guide curves.  My preference, which has seen TC give me pretty good returns over the years, is to loft through an intermediate profile or profiles, giving a more obvious indication of the way the loft tool should surface the shape.   Transitions between polygons and curved profiles are especially subjective, and I've a fair bit of sympathy for the programmers who create a kernel to try to satisfy as many people as possible, with a high possibility leaving many less than satisfied.     

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* July 29, 2019, 02:14:18 AM
#64
Reply to #62
I had a simple design that was extremely slow to load and display on screen, eventually found that it was caused by audit history was checked. It had parttree parts as well. Uncheck all audit options and retry.

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Daz
TCW V21, 2015-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5.2 & Redsdk enabled, LightWorks rendering mostly.


* July 29, 2019, 06:15:11 AM
#65
I think that this the shape that is the difficulty here. Any processing miss step causes turbo cad to go slower. I was finding that the more that I tried to line up the profiles the slower it would go in some instance. I still believe that at maximum zoom turbocad is having trouble putting the four edges together when they are added from different solids. I have rebuilt this an inspected every corner before adding more then several times and despite snapping everything, using a snap line ruler that I made to maintain squareness in the object as a check, and redrawing completely from primitives I am still getting edges at maximum zoom. I have since increased the precision of turbocad to level 6.

I haven't yet added this computers profile to my description yet however this computer is a Intel I7, X920 2.0GHz, with 8GB ram, 64 Bit and an NVIDIA Quadro FX 1800M It is about 10 years old. I do have a new computer on the way. Could this be a video card problem?

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* July 29, 2019, 03:23:16 PM
#66
Ever seen an error message that tells you "the ACIS solid is degenerated" when you try a boolean action?  That's what you're building into your part when you try to match edges and vertices exactly as you're doing.   In CAD-speak, "degeneracy" is coincident features: edges, vertices, faces.  Better practice (probability of success) is to overlap parts and boolean them against each other with intersections and subtractions so the program is determining the geometric relationship of coincidental features itself.

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July 30, 2019, 05:38:47 AM
#67
I think that this the shape that is the difficulty here. Any processing miss step causes turbo cad to go slower. I was finding that the more that I tried to line up the profiles the slower it would go in some instance. I still believe that at maximum zoom turbocad is having trouble putting the four edges together when they are added from different solids. I have rebuilt this an inspected every corner before adding more then several times and despite snapping everything, using a snap line ruler that I made to maintain squareness in the object as a check, and redrawing completely from primitives I am still getting edges at maximum zoom. I have since increased the precision of turbocad to level 6.

I haven't yet added this computers profile to my description yet however this computer is a Intel I7, X920 2.0GHz, with 8GB ram, 64 Bit and an NVIDIA Quadro FX 1800M It is about 10 years old. I do have a new computer on the way. Could this be a video card problem?

Dean

Can you confirm what you are trying to achieve with the node points from your last attached drawing?
I have an inkling that all these nodes should be positioned on the z axis in the same place and looking using 3D Spheres there is some discrepancy with Precision set to 10.

The top row (the Red Line) Green and Blue Spheres are different to Yellow and Orchid Z positions
The Bottom row (Green Line) the Wheat Sphere is different to Brown, Light Blue and Dim Grey z Positions.

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V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 30, 2019, 06:13:07 AM
#68
Ever seen an error message that tells you "the ACIS solid is degenerated" when you try a boolean action?  That's what you're building into your part when you try to match edges and vertices exactly as you're doing.   In CAD-speak, "degeneracy" is coincident features: edges, vertices, faces.  Better practice (probability of success) is to overlap parts and boolean them against each other with intersections and subtractions so the program is determining the geometric relationship of coincidental features itself.

Hi Murray,

The last several iterations of the the boolean actions did not report any ACIS solid degeneration. There were a few instances where I was intentionally overlapping the solids and in those instances I was getting shards left over when performing a subtraction from the solid. I'm not sure how this is possible however I have attached an image of this occurring. This was when I switched to not overlapping solids. In the instances that I was getting these shards I was unable to subtract out.

It seems that even though I am snapping all edges and building the profiles from primitives and strait polylines without moving any of them and isolating each profile in a tower after it is lined up on a plane that is perpendicular to all of the profiles there is still some error being introduced. I suppose I could go to precision 10 to see if it fixes the problem. When I inspected the way that all of the solids resulting from the profiles lined up before adding them together at maximum zoom they all lined up. After summing them together I zoomed in and looked at the edges and they looked like the previous image. I have not yet tried to fillet this solid yet but I suspect that the fillet tool will react differently to different edges and make some not filletable again, or not filletable again in the same way as the previous iterations.

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* July 30, 2019, 06:48:11 AM
#69
I think that this the shape that is the difficulty here. Any processing miss step causes turbo cad to go slower. I was finding that the more that I tried to line up the profiles the slower it would go in some instance. I still believe that at maximum zoom turbocad is having trouble putting the four edges together when they are added from different solids. I have rebuilt this an inspected every corner before adding more then several times and despite snapping everything, using a snap line ruler that I made to maintain squareness in the object as a check, and redrawing completely from primitives I am still getting edges at maximum zoom. I have since increased the precision of turbocad to level 6.

I haven't yet added this computers profile to my description yet however this computer is a Intel I7, X920 2.0GHz, with 8GB ram, 64 Bit and an NVIDIA Quadro FX 1800M It is about 10 years old. I do have a new computer on the way. Could this be a video card problem?

Dean

Can you confirm what you are trying to achieve with the node points from your last attached drawing?
I have an inkling that all these nodes should be positioned on the z axis in the same place and looking using 3D Spheres there is some discrepancy with Precision set to 10.

The top row (the Red Line) Green and Blue Spheres are different to Yellow and Orchid Z positions
The Bottom row (Green Line) the Wheat Sphere is different to Brown, Light Blue and Dim Grey z Positions.

Hi Darrel,

Thanks for the analysis. Hmm yes I see that Z difference. It seems that I need more points to snap to on each z plane align up these solids. At this level of alignment I noticed that standard tools such as slice do not always slice directly to a plane. In some instances the slice was slicing half way between the facet surface and the work plane (as visible at maximum zoom). I was also noticing that I couldn't just pull the surface by a small amount to fix these kind of problems.

It seems that I must setup something more confining to snap to then a simple 2D alignment plane for this. I will try this  and get all these Z points onto the two planes and rebuild the profiles once again.


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* July 30, 2019, 07:12:19 AM
#70
Thanks for the input! The next version of the solid parts will be built with three levels of z guide planes as in the "New Alignment Guides" image. The two points that go into air and do not intersect with a green profile cannot intersect with the green profile on the same XY plane, the solid must loft out at this point. I have previously aligned four of these wider points on this lone profile with a rectangle. Lets seem how this goes.

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July 30, 2019, 08:51:11 AM
#71
I would try to reduce the splits in profiles as it seems to improve filleting as attached shows all fillets applied @ 0.04...

Try turning the profiles so it's upright into the Z axis as you can then use the align tools.


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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* July 31, 2019, 02:44:03 PM
#72
Hi Darrel,

When you say splits in the profiles do you mean the number of sections that the dots bisect in the image?

What do you mean by turning the profiles upright into the Z axis?

I have been able to sum the model to be contiguous without breaks now. I will be attempting to fillet tomorrow.

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August 01, 2019, 03:17:01 AM
#73
Hi Darrel,

When you say splits in the profiles do you mean the number of sections that the dots bisect in the image?

What do you mean by turning the profiles upright into the Z axis?

I have been able to sum the model to be contiguous without breaks now. I will be attempting to fillet tomorrow.

Hi Dean
Just quickly tried your "Pre-fillet" drawing and there are still problems with trying to fillet certain edges as per the area attached with a very small step where the curve meets the flat.

Z Axis as shown in the attached is better when using the align tools as using them in any other workplane causes problems.

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* August 01, 2019, 05:09:19 AM
#74
Dean,
Something is screwy with your profiles.
Can we try something. ;D
In "world plan view" activate "plane by world" then draw all your profiles each of them on their own layer.

Then move them to their "Z" axis positions in a front view and post that file.


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Windows 7 64 bit HP > 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21,20,19 and 18.Using LightWorks, Anilab lab 5.  HP all in one  23" Touch smart screen with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3. Intel Core i5 ,2.27GHz,4 GB ram.


* August 01, 2019, 07:41:12 AM
#75
Hi Darrel,

When you say splits in the profiles do you mean the number of sections that the dots bisect in the image?

What do you mean by turning the profiles upright into the Z axis?

I have been able to sum the model to be contiguous without breaks now. I will be attempting to fillet tomorrow.

Hi Dean
Just quickly tried your "Pre-fillet" drawing and there are still problems with trying to fillet certain edges as per the area attached with a very small step where the curve meets the flat.

Z Axis as shown in the attached is better when using the align tools as using them in any other workplane causes problems.


Ahh yes. I see that small edge left... I was having trouble adding together the large extruded cylinder and the loft from the polygon to the large circle to get a clean edge between the two and so I pulled the circle from the loft and that is where the alignment issue occured.  I'll need to reloft those pieces if a slight alignment can't fix the issue. I will try alignment tools first while the solids are not summed.

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* August 07, 2019, 08:29:53 AM
#76
I'm still working on this project. I had to break away into something else for a bit. I seem to be doing better on this model.

Take a look at how TC applied these fillets. There were no edge problems ahead of applying the vertically as first the top down and then from the bottom up. The result is that I can't do the horizontal fillet because both of the sides end and do not go over the midsection that is round. I tried to bandage it however I cannot add a swept profile to fill in a rounded area horizontally. Any other ideas on what I might be able to do?

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August 08, 2019, 04:24:17 AM
#77
I'm still working on this project. I had to break away into something else for a bit. I seem to be doing better on this model.

Take a look at how TC applied these fillets. There were no edge problems ahead of applying the vertically as first the top down and then from the bottom up. The result is that I can't do the horizontal fillet because both of the sides end and do not go over the midsection that is round. I tried to bandage it however I cannot add a swept profile to fill in a rounded area horizontally. Any other ideas on what I might be able to do?

Can you post a file Dean so we can look at it..... before filleting if possible?

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* August 13, 2019, 06:14:24 AM
#78
I'm still working on this project. I had to break away into something else for a bit. I seem to be doing better on this model.

Take a look at how TC applied these fillets. There were no edge problems ahead of applying the vertically as first the top down and then from the bottom up. The result is that I can't do the horizontal fillet because both of the sides end and do not go over the midsection that is round. I tried to bandage it however I cannot add a swept profile to fill in a rounded area horizontally. Any other ideas on what I might be able to do?

Can you post a file Dean so we can look at it..... before filleting if possible?

Hi Darrel,

I had to power through this because I was on a deadline and I saved the file past this point and so I do not have it. I did resolve my issues but ended up having to use two fillet sizes and go in a specific order.

Thanks everyone for the help.

Best Regards,
Dean

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