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Sheet and plate development
Read 4213 times
* March 09, 2011, 06:44:47 PM
Sheet and plate development is widely useful for things as diverse as sailmaking and boatbuilding, ductwork, vehicle bodywork and other.  Some CAD applications have specific tools to assist this, such as tools obviously labelled "ruled surface".  TC has the tools, but in less-than-obvious locations. 
TC creates ruled surfaces when you specify "TC surface" in 3D properties beforehand.  When you've lofted the surface, explode it immediately from "loft" to "TC surface", then switch it back to "solid" in 3D properties.  Your surface is all triangles.

In the first picture, I've lofted two 3D splines and switched them in that way.

In the second, I've placed spheres to subtract at triangle apex intersections.  The reason for that is that if an intersection has more than two faces adjoining a vertex, unfolding will fail.  After the subtraction, fillet the edges with adjoining faces as shown, then shell the surface.
The small inset showing the unbending having happened from both sides.  That's not always so.  Sometimes if you select a face, TC will have a think about it then return "can't unbend object".  It's worth trying it from both sides, because you'll often notice that unfold face will work on a cone or cylinder, but if the object is shelled, not on the opposite side of the shell, which should also, in theory, be a conical or cylindrical surface.  Unbending also seems to be sensitive to that effect.

In the third picture, the edges are restored with facet edit.  The cutouts that resulted from the spheres have their facets highlit and deleted, which restores the complete edges so you can trace the outline of the sheet to cut.

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* March 09, 2011, 07:42:54 PM
#1
That's great, Murray. Thanks for sharing.

Henry H

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* December 30, 2019, 12:13:27 PM
#2
Hi Murray
thank you for your information.
I've a similar problem: I'm trying to draw a clinkered hull, and to unbend the planks then to make cutting templates for them.
All planks are created by lofting.

As an initial test I'm trying to get a flat representation of the gray plank. I've exploded it after the loft, and it is a TC solid now.

I tried
- bending / unfold face - I'm unable to select the face to be unfolded
- bending / unbend sheet - I'm unable t select the base face for the sheet

Then I've change the ACIS Solid plank into a TC surface - same result with bending attempts. Does not work.

I'm running TC 2019 Pro Platinum, newest level.

Any ideas?

Any help is highly appreciated. Thank you.
Ruedi
Biber-Boote Schweiz

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December 30, 2019, 12:43:18 PM
#3
Gday Murray and thanks for those tips Im sure they will come in handy. Sometime back I seem to remember that you said in a post that you were doing some modeling of surface objects or something like that/similar cay you share some of your wire  diagram/renders?

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Daz
TCW V21, 2015-2020 PP, Animation Lab V5.2 & Redsdk enabled, LightWorks rendering mostly.


December 30, 2019, 01:29:03 PM
#4
...

As an initial test I'm trying to get a flat representation of the gray plank. I've exploded it after the loft, and it is a TC solid now.
....

Murray's instructions said to have first set your Loft Tool Properties to TC_Surface before lofting.
If you did that, when you Exploded the Loft, you should have a TC_Surface object, not a [ACIS] Solid, as you reported.

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Alvin Gregorio
Intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 (ver6.5).  No formal CAD Training.
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* December 30, 2019, 01:43:55 PM
#5
...

As an initial test I'm trying to get a flat representation of the gray plank. I've exploded it after the loft, and it is a TC solid now.
....

Murray's instructions said to have first set your Loft Tool Properties to TC_Surface before lofting.
If you did that, when you Exploded the Loft, you should have a TC_Surface object, not a [ACIS] Solid, as you reported.

Not sure how one can do that.

Henry H

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* December 30, 2019, 01:45:23 PM
#6
Ruedi, please post the .tcw file.

Henry H

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December 30, 2019, 01:56:00 PM
#7
...

As an initial test I'm trying to get a flat representation of the gray plank. I've exploded it after the loft, and it is a TC solid now.
....

Murray's instructions said to have first set your Loft Tool Properties to TC_Surface before lofting.
If you did that, when you Exploded the Loft, you should have a TC_Surface object, not a [ACIS] Solid, as you reported.

Not sure how one can do that.

Henry H

Yeah, me either.  I'm trying to get my boat hull plank to TC_Surface Loft or Rail_Sweep, but I'm not getting the triangulation.  Just planar surfaces (as I think Murray would say).

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Alvin Gregorio
Intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 (ver6.5).  No formal CAD Training.
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* December 30, 2019, 02:13:07 PM
#8
...

As an initial test I'm trying to get a flat representation of the gray plank. I've exploded it after the loft, and it is a TC solid now.
....

Murray's instructions said to have first set your Loft Tool Properties to TC_Surface before lofting.
If you did that, when you Exploded the Loft, you should have a TC_Surface object, not a [ACIS] Solid, as you reported.

Not sure how one can do that.

Henry H

Yeah, me either.  I'm trying to get my boat hull plank to TC_Surface Loft or Rail_Sweep, but I'm not getting the triangulation.  Just planar surfaces (as I think Murray would say).

Alvin, can you post your plank .tcw?

Henry H

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December 30, 2019, 02:24:38 PM
#9

Alvin, can you post your plank .tcw?

Henry H

Attached

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Alvin Gregorio
Intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 (ver6.5).  No formal CAD Training.
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* December 30, 2019, 03:06:42 PM
#10
how can I attach my fbm file? this file type is not included in the attachment file types list.

kind regards
Ruedi

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* December 30, 2019, 03:18:34 PM
#11
sorry, tried the wrong file.
Here it is ...
The lofting is made with polylines as input (rotated rectangles). With my humble opinion they are not surfaces. Surfaces can be created after the lofting is done. I've tried both TC Solids and TC Surfaces. I'm unable to create what I want to have with both of them.

Any ideas?

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* December 30, 2019, 06:40:13 PM
#12

Alvin, can you post your plank .tcw?

Henry H

Attached

The "correct" procedure, I think, is to fillet the vertical edges (except for the two extreme ends) and then Shell. And then Unbend. Except that Genie sez she "Cannot unbend entity" no matter which face I click on.

I'm having problems with Ruedi's drawing, too: If I re-create his plank by tracing two edges with 3D Splines, Loft, Explode to a Surface, convert back to a Solid, Fillet, and Shell--I can Unbend partially but not completely.

Henry H

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* December 31, 2019, 01:03:49 AM
#13
Nine years on from originally posting this, I use SharkCAD Pro PowerPack most often for developing ruled surfaces.  Relatively inexpensive (about USD 70), there's an old-school (in UI terms, functionality's great) hull design app called Pilot3D that develops ruled IGES surfaces, and it will give an idea of whether or not real-world expansion, ie stretching/tearing might work, it keeps things associated, so editing the loft curves undates the flat pattern, .dxf output for that.  Open-source FreeCAD has a Python macro to unroll ruled surfaces, again it'll interoperate with TC through IGES, but it's sometimes hit-or-miss.  TCMac, ViaCAD and FreeCAD all have specific ruled surface loft tools, which give reliable results for unfolding and unrolling.    I can use TC 2016 if you think I might be useful to your project.   

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* December 31, 2019, 01:55:25 AM
#14
Hi
Thank you both.
I think I'll try to use SharkCAD ProPowerPack with Pilot3D as suggested by Murray :-), and probably give FreeCAD (have it but used it not alot so far) a try too. Is there an opportunity to import 3d files (e.g. IGES) into SharkCAD?

Usually I'm using Delftship Pro for hull design - love the relative ease of use (after a rather steep learning curve ..) and its opportunity to compute hydrostatics as well. And it can export a design in several different file types too.

Thank you all for your kind help. All the best and a happy new year!
Ruedi
https://www.biber-boote.ch   

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* December 31, 2019, 02:26:38 AM
#15
Murray

where you've got SharkCADPro for 70 dollars?
What I've found is this (see attachment).

all the best
Ruedi

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December 31, 2019, 05:49:25 AM
#16
...
TC creates ruled surfaces when you specify "TC surface" in 3D properties beforehand.  When you've lofted the surface, explode it immediately from "loft" to "TC surface", then switch it back to "solid" in 3D properties.  Your surface is all triangles.
...

Murray, can you elaborate on that.  If you have the interest and time.

Try as I might, in ProPlatinum and Deluxe editions, I cannot get curved TC_Surface Loft or Sweep objects-- that have been Exploded to TC_Surface then immediately changed to Solid-- to triangulate.

Do you, more than eight years later, still think this can be produced as you originally described?

--If you're interested and have the time...

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Alvin Gregorio
Intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 (ver6.5).  No formal CAD Training.
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* December 31, 2019, 06:52:12 AM
#17
...
TC creates ruled surfaces when you specify "TC surface" in 3D properties beforehand.  When you've lofted the surface, explode it immediately from "loft" to "TC surface", then switch it back to "solid" in 3D properties.  Your surface is all triangles.
...

Murray, can you elaborate on that.  If you have the interest and time.

Try as I might, in ProPlatinum and Deluxe editions, I cannot get curved TC_Surface Loft or Sweep objects-- that have been Exploded to TC_Surface then immediately changed to Solid-- to triangulate.

Do you, more than eight years later, still think this can be produced as you originally described?

--If you're interested and have the time...


If I may chime in here, ;D
Alvin did you draw two 3d splines or copy a spline then loft them?
If you copied a 3D spline try adding a node via the edit tool to one of the 3D splines then do Murray's lofting procedure.
OR
Draw two 3D splines not quite exactly the same.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 06:57:05 AM by Dean »

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP TurboCad Platinum >2020- 2019-2018-2017-21-20-19 and 18.Using only LightWorks (NO Redsdk Plugin installed), Anilab lab 5.  HP all in one  23" Touch smart screen with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3. Intel Core i5 ,2.27GHz,


* December 31, 2019, 07:18:34 AM
#18
hmmm ...

I've draw two 3d splines, and lofted them. Works, and looks rather o.k. The result is a loft (see attachment).
Then I exploded the loft -> result is an ACIS Solid (see attachment).

I can change this into a TC Surface by changing the 3d option in the properties of the loft.

But I'm unable to unbend this - it seems not to work for all variations of the loft.

The result is the same as when I loft the twisted rectangles. Or at least I cannot see any difference for unbendig this.


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December 31, 2019, 07:25:45 AM
#19
...
I've draw two 3d splines, and lofted them. Works, and looks rather o.k. The result is a loft (see attachment).
Then I exploded the loft -> result is an ACIS Solid (see attachment).
...

Hello Ruedi.  Did you pre-set the Loft 3D Properties to TC_Surface before inserting/creating the Loft?
In his original post, Murray made it clear that this was important to do.

If one Explodes a Loft, and the Selection Info reported outcome of that Exploded object is  ACIS_Solid, I have to assume that one did not pre-set the Loft to TC_Surface.

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Alvin Gregorio
Intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 (ver6.5).  No formal CAD Training.
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* December 31, 2019, 07:55:38 AM
#20
Hello Alvin
thank you for the tip.

I did now what you say - I've overlokked the importance of the operations sequence.
Set TC surface option for "Loft" function, made the loft, exploded it (got tc surface), set 3d property for it to tc solid.

What I get is a surface with triangles. Unbending works for every single triangle, but not for the whole surface - or at least I did not find out how this can/must be made ;-).

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December 31, 2019, 08:15:36 AM
#21
Hello Alvin
thank you for the tip.

I did now what you say - I've overlokked the importance of the operations sequence.
Set TC surface option for "Loft" function, made the loft, exploded it (got tc surface), set 3d property for it to tc solid.

What I get is a surface with triangles. Unbending works for every single triangle, but not for the whole surface - or at least I did not find out how this can/must be made ;-).

Hmmm...  If I can get that far in my attempts...
I'll read what Dean posted; that will probably help me.

Maybe you neglected Murray's suggested step insert and 3D_Subtract the Spheres.  It sounds like you might have overlooked that bit.

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Alvin Gregorio
Intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 (ver6.5).  No formal CAD Training.
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


December 31, 2019, 08:20:07 AM
#22
...
Try as I might, in ProPlatinum and Deluxe editions, I cannot get curved TC_Surface Loft or Sweep objects-- that have been Exploded to TC_Surface then immediately changed to Solid-- to triangulate.
...


If I may chime in here, ;D
Alvin did you draw two 3d splines or copy a spline then loft them?
If you copied a 3D spline try adding a node via the edit tool to one of the 3D splines then do Murray's lofting procedure.
OR
Draw two 3D splines not quite exactly the same.

That makes sense.  Last night, while watching the Orange Bowl, I thought that might be the reason/case.

I had lofted two identical 2D Splines-- the original, and the "Make Copy" result of moving the original in the +Z direction.

I'll give your suggestion a go.

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Alvin Gregorio
Intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 (ver6.5).  No formal CAD Training.
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* December 31, 2019, 08:22:01 AM
#23
Hi Alvin

I've seen it, but I haven't understood what he's doing. I think I'll have another look on it, and give it another try :-)

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* December 31, 2019, 08:56:59 AM
#24
Here's what I get after lofting Ruedi's plank from two 3D Splines traced along the upper and lower outer edges (top object), converting to Surface and back to Solid, subtracting spheres (middle object), filleting, and shelling (the "pink" object). It's nicely triangulated but it won't unbend.

I'm thinking that it might be easier to use Unfold Face on the original loft and reassemble the resulting pieces.

Henry H

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* December 31, 2019, 07:44:32 PM
#25
Dropping in again, on vacation with the family over new year, so I don't necessarily have immediate access to everything I've talked about.   Ruedi, it's Pilot3D that's USD 70, SharkCAD is the cost of TC PP and more, sorry to mislead.  Shark Pro's got some higher-end translators that cost.  PowerPack's unroll surface recognises surfaces created as I described imported as ACIS .sat surface, shelled as a STEP solid, or as an IGES surface and flattens them without further treatment.  Pilot imports the edges as IGES curves, lofts them itself, feeds back about the developability and allows associative edits to make surfaces compliant, I give it a rap because I don't know of anything else like it for the money and it's interoperable with TC via IGES.

Henry, would you do me a favour and save back?

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* January 01, 2020, 09:18:06 AM
#26
Dropping in again, on vacation with the family over new year, so I don't necessarily have immediate access to everything I've talked about.   Ruedi, it's Pilot3D that's USD 70, SharkCAD is the cost of TC PP and more, sorry to mislead.  Shark Pro's got some higher-end translators that cost.  PowerPack's unroll surface recognises surfaces created as I described imported as ACIS .sat surface, shelled as a STEP solid, or as an IGES surface and flattens them without further treatment.  Pilot imports the edges as IGES curves, lofts them itself, feeds back about the developability and allows associative edits to make surfaces compliant, I give it a rap because I don't know of anything else like it for the money and it's interoperable with TC via IGES.

Henry, would you do me a favour and save back?

Sure, Murray. What version?

Henry H

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* January 01, 2020, 11:24:05 AM
#27
2016 is where I'm up to, Henry.  Thanks!

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* January 01, 2020, 11:52:12 AM
#28
2016 is where I'm up to, Henry.  Thanks!

Here ya go, Murray. I don't have v2016 so I can't verify that it does open in that version. Opens OK in 2017.

Henry H

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* January 06, 2020, 05:16:11 AM
#29
Okay, here's a couple of experiments with Henry's 3D trace of the plank edges.  The green outline was produced by Shark PowerPack from a TC loft exchanged as ACIS .sat, so it wasn't done as a TC surface, it was done as a solid.  The black outline was produced in FreeCAD: I exported Henry's splines as .igs into FreeCAD, lofted them as a ruled surface and then used a FreeCAD macro called....(drumroll...)unroll.  There's a dialogue box opens in FC when you hit execute, it asks you to nominate "generatrices 0-3" or "generatrices 1-4", try both options one is correct.  The outcomes between the two unroll systems are very similar. 
The Shark outline was brought back into TC exported from Shark as .dwg, the FC outline was exchanged as .igs.  FC exports as .iges which TC doesn't recognise, so rename the file attachment to .igs 

*edit* sorry, wrong drawing attached.  Corrected now.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 03:59:30 AM by murray dickinson »

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* January 08, 2020, 04:42:18 AM
#30
Hi Murray,
What does your drawing demonstrate, I mean, it doesn't unbend or unfold face in Turbocad.

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP TurboCad Platinum >2020- 2019-2018-2017-21-20-19 and 18.Using only LightWorks (NO Redsdk Plugin installed), Anilab lab 5.  HP all in one  23" Touch smart screen with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3. Intel Core i5 ,2.27GHz,


* January 08, 2020, 05:23:27 AM
#31
No, I wrote the original post way back and I've moved on from there, but Ruedi did respond recently.  I referred to the FreeCAD tool because it works, it's accessible to anyone, and it's interoperable with TC.  FreeCAD's unroll plugin is written in Python, anyone can see how it works, and smarter people than me might even be able to crosspollinate the technique into TC's IDE.  IMSI now owns PunchCAD/Shark/ViaCAD, which are versions of TC Mac, all of which can have PowerPack plugged in, and having experience with them I (a) feel qualified to report on the tools that'll fill Ruedi's requirement, and (b) now that those apps are stablemates with TC at IMSI, don't feel that there's a conflict in talking about them.  These alternatives are more focussed than TC on Ruedi's requirement. 

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January 08, 2020, 05:29:13 AM
#32
Hi Murray.  One thing I haven't been clear about the past couple of weeks:

Do you still believe everything written in your original post, this thread, is correct?

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Alvin Gregorio
Intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 (ver6.5).  No formal CAD Training.
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* January 08, 2020, 07:07:27 PM
#33
Yes, but it's very conditional and the alternatives I referred to are much less so.

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January 08, 2020, 07:14:53 PM
#34
Murray when you mentioned Freecad is this the link?
https://www.freecadweb.org/

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Daz
TCW V21, 2015-2020 PP, Animation Lab V5.2 & Redsdk enabled, LightWorks rendering mostly.


* January 08, 2020, 07:52:40 PM
#35
Yes, Daz.

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* January 29, 2020, 03:13:06 AM
#36
Some info relevant to this thread: Steve Hollister, the creator of Pilot3D, one of the programs I referred to above, is making his more advanced, full maritime modelling program with hydrostatics and stability modelling version, ProSurf, available at no cost for a period.  It's Pilot3D with no restrictions and added capability, like hulls and stations, airfoil and keel plotting, other stuff.  As I said above, it's an old-school UI, which is one of the reasons Steve's being generous ATM.  He can be approached through the contact email on the Pilot3D site.  A knowledgeable and interesting guy, if you have the opportunity to correspond.

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