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Problems from Rendering in LightWorks & redSDK
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* April 02, 2019, 07:19:35 PM
Yesterday by accident I must have have clicked the render tool in the Tools -> 3D Model rather than the render icon in the menu and it created problems that took some time to resolve. I normally use LightWorks by default but some reason the DetroitGennyFirePump file must have rendered in redSDK ( problem4.png ). I couldnt work out why my drawing was taking in excess of 10 minutes to render in LW Quality/Ray Trace, so I started to back track my work to underastand what Id done wrong.

I had previously tried to fix this problem in V21 and the changes I made seemed no better in V2018, thats when I discovered that turbocad V21 had created a  DetroitGennyFirePump_V21RED folder ( problem3.png ) and I then discovered the culprit, I had rendered in redSDK by pure accident and that was confirmed  ( problem2.png ) in the Active Drawing(DetroitGennyFirePump.tcw) through the Render Manager. Both rendering engines had materials attached to the same drawing and this is what creates the dramas with very slow rendering in either engine.

Further confirmation came about after I rebooted and then reopened the DetroitGennyFirePump.tcw in V2018 and then discovered ( problem.png ) a coloured render appear in the file open dialog, Id never seen this before. So the point is to never mix up rendering in both engines as it may lead to very slow renders and mixed materials in the same active drawing.

All problems are now resolved, I personally like the redSDK selector in Turbocad as compared to the LW version and that I will most likely remove the rendering tools from the 3D Model tools area.

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Daz
TCW V21, 2015-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5.2 & Redsdk enabled, LightWorks rendering mostly.


April 03, 2019, 03:19:37 AM
#1
Further confirmation came about after I rebooted and then reopened the DetroitGennyFirePump.tcw in V2018 and then discovered ( problem.png ) a coloured render appear in the file open dialog, Id never seen this before. So the point is to never mix up rendering in both engines as it may lead to very slow renders and mixed materials in the same active drawing.

All problems are now resolved, I personally like the redSDK selector in Turbocad as compared to the LW version and that I will most likely remove the rendering tools from the 3D Model tools area.

1. How did you resolve the conflicts?
2. I was unable to duplicate the presence of a rendered image in the File / Open menu popup by saving while the image was rendered.  Interesting, however, that the file size changed when all I did was load the file, render the image, then save.  That just doesn't seem... kosher?


Jeff


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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


* April 03, 2019, 05:56:37 AM
#2
Jeff, is it possible that when you save while an image is rendered, that a copy of the rendered image is saved with the TCW? Otherwise, how is the rendered image shown in the Open menu popup?

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TC 21 Deluxe, TC 20 Platinum, TC 2015 Platinum, TC 2016 Platinum, TC 2017 Platinum
i7- 3770 Ivy Bridge 3.4 GHz, 16G Crucial Ballistic, ASRock Extreme 4, EVGA 1060 SSC, Windows 10 Pro 64 Bit


April 03, 2019, 06:29:13 AM
#3
Jeff, is it possible that when you save while an image is rendered, that a copy of the rendered image is saved with the TCW? Otherwise, how is the rendered image shown in the Open menu popup?

A perspicacious question.  I ran several experiments saving a file while a rendered image was displayed, but no rendered image showed up in the file listing when opening files.  Perhaps things would have been different if I were using Native Draw, but I haven't checked that, yet.


Jeff

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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


* April 03, 2019, 08:26:13 AM
#4
Is the render options checked in save as menu ??
If the drawing is saved and closed in a render it will show in pre view

Torfinn

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V20, V21, 2015/ 16/ 17/ 18/ 19 Pro. Platinum
Deluxe 2015/ 16/ 19
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Home Premium 64 bit, 32 GB
NVIDIA Geforce GTX 780m, 1 GB


* April 03, 2019, 09:04:04 AM
#5
Look in "File / Summary Info". If you have "Create View - Active View" checked, that can save your thumbnail in a rendered mode. This will show up in Windows Explorer and other places. This option only works on individual drawings, which is probably a good thing.

Torfinn, I think that setting in "File / Save—›Setup" is for thumbnails created in the Render Manager (Materials, Environment, etc).

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2019
Designer, Deluxe, (Professional, Expert, Basic), Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro (1903), 64-bit


* April 03, 2019, 09:28:36 AM
#6
I never check that one in File Summary Info ... , but if i save in renderview it will show like that in the pre-view and opens in wireframe in the same view as i left it..
So assumed that was the one in save menu that did the trick, but i tested turned it of, save in wireframe and i did get a normal top view, open it again, just rendered and saved again, not checked anyplace and i got myself a render pre-view.

Torfinn

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RedSDK enabled
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* April 03, 2019, 02:55:40 PM
#7
Jeff I was able to resolve the issue by deleting the redSDK materials while in the render manager ActiveDrawing only. Then immediately save the drawing. At no time did I select or change how tcw should save the file information summary. Take note that the last clue that something was wrong with the file see problem.png again.

Edit: 2 points.
1. On occasions Ive seen tcw warnings of "Unable to find redsdk material" of the same name in Lightworks coming up.

2. That I did save the problem file back to V21 to try and identify what was wrong, hence the V21_REDSDK folder appearing.

To me it now seems clear that the turbocad needs to have a checkbox in the options dialog to use a specific render engine only to stop this from happening again. Point here is that a less experienced person would be unlikely to find this error.
End edit.

I never tried to save the file while rendering was active. So setup your configuration the same as mine for a test with a dummy file and render in LW, then re render again in redsdk and let us know what you get. Make sure you have the same named materials in both engines. Sometime back I remember reading that Andy warned to never mix rendering engines for the same file!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 03:09:04 PM by Darryl W »

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Daz
TCW V21, 2015-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5.2 & Redsdk enabled, LightWorks rendering mostly.


April 03, 2019, 04:10:51 PM
#8
Sometime back I remember reading that Andy warned to never mix rendering engines for the same file!

Well, I certainly have not followed that advice.  With several files, I have LightWorks for Quality rendering and RedSDK for Advanced.  I often switch back and forth in the same file before saving it.


Jeff

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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


* April 03, 2019, 04:11:45 PM
#9
Jeff I was able to resolve the issue by deleting the redSDK materials while in the render manager ActiveDrawing only. Then immediately save the drawing. At no time did I select or change how tcw should save the file information summary. Take note that the last clue that something was wrong with the file see problem.png again.

Edit: 2 points.
1. On occasions Ive seen tcw warnings of "Unable to find redsdk material" of the same name in Lightworks coming up.

2. That I did save the problem file back to V21 to try and identify what was wrong, hence the V21_REDSDK folder appearing.

To me it now seems clear that the turbocad needs to have a checkbox in the options dialog to use a specific render engine only to stop this from happening again. Point here is that a less experienced person would be unlikely to find this error.
End edit.

I never tried to save the file while rendering was active. So setup your configuration the same as mine for a test with a dummy file and render in LW, then re render again in redsdk and let us know what you get. Make sure you have the same named materials in both engines. Sometime back I remember reading that Andy warned to never mix rendering engines for the same file!

Hi Darryl.
On that topic marked in red  > I have to say that is not true.
I'm always working with both render engines in my test drawings,I have been for years  ;D
Backward compatibility is another subject.
Can you post an example along with a clear description of what you want to do.


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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21,20,19 and 18.Using LightWorks, Anilab lab 5.  HP all in one  23" Touch smart screen with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3. Intel Core i5 ,2.27GHz,4 GB ram.


* April 03, 2019, 04:52:12 PM
#10
Jeff and Dean I cant remember the exact quote from Andy other than what Ive posted. I may have got it wrong in the context of what he said. I can only talk about what  I experienced when the file wouldnt render correctly. Ive gotta add that to try and overcome the problem I reverted back to V21 to test the problem file, like I said thats when I noticed the new V21 folder. From my side there was a clash of materials I presume and after removing the duplicates the problem was solved. Nothing else in a reasonable sense  explains what I was seeing my side.

Maybe if Andy can weigh in here he might be able to shed some light on his knowledge of what might have occurred my side.

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Daz
TCW V21, 2015-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5.2 & Redsdk enabled, LightWorks rendering mostly.


* April 03, 2019, 05:23:24 PM
#11
I do same as Dean, mix renders in same drawings, i also have my "base materials" in both RedSDK and LigtWork with the same name, never seen any issue about that.
That said, i nearly never use Advanced render, Quality is normally enough for my needs, shadows:

Torfinn

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V20, V21, 2015/ 16/ 17/ 18/ 19 Pro. Platinum
Deluxe 2015/ 16/ 19
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Home Premium 64 bit, 32 GB
NVIDIA Geforce GTX 780m, 1 GB


* April 03, 2019, 07:34:05 PM
#12
This message that Andy posted does not have the key words that I used, so apologies for that. The post does mention that there were conflicts between Lightworks and redSDK and that there was a camera variable.

http://forums.turbocad.com/index.php/topic,22206.msg133366.html#msg133366

I was rendering in Lightworks/Quality/Raytrace consistently. Okay I get it that you can render in either engine without any problems. But what else can explain what I saw in the rendering that was taking a long time and after further investigation and removing the redSDK materials the rendering fault just vanished. I genuinely sought to inform that there was a conflict at my end which is now gone.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 11:10:26 PM by Darryl W »

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Daz
TCW V21, 2015-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5.2 & Redsdk enabled, LightWorks rendering mostly.


* April 04, 2019, 02:31:42 AM
#13
I cannot remember the context.  So the following is for any new users reading this thread.

IMHO prior to v2018, On my computer, TC did not do a good job of translating materials from RedSDK to Lightworks and vice versa. It's obviously true, one can set up duplicates, but I suspect most users won't want that hassle.  Also if one created, say a wood floor in lightworks quality, changed the grain, plank width, gap etc. and expected it to render similar in RedSDK advanced. it is just is not going to happen.

Also, again IMO some things still do not translate properly like. Luminance and environments.    With so many settings that can be changed in Materials, Luminance, environments, there can never be a seamless transition between engines.  So for any 'Non Skilled' users, I would not advise switching engines in the same drawing.

With regards AnimationLab.  some commands have to be set up differently for lightworks and RedSDK. Indeed prior to 2017, some commands did not work at all in RedSDK.  So.  Setting up quality lightworks animation, and switching to RedSDK advanced.  In some situations it will break the animation.  (not a good idea).

The above is simply for clarification, for any new users.  Obviously not relevant to this exact discussion.


Darryl.     With regards the .Red files. Back in v21, IMSI did an 'experiment' of creating all materials with a .Red extension, These individual files, contained all the relevant information for displaying a material. If you look in Program files (etc.) TC 21 materials, you will see lots of .Red files.  It is also the reason that the TC installation file for v21 was 300 MB larger than v20 or v2015.   I (probably wrongly) call it an 'experiment', as since then they left all the material setup to the Propin.dat file, the same as lightworks.   At least that is how things appear to me.
       
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 02:58:59 AM by Andy H »

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* April 04, 2019, 04:55:20 AM
#14
I believe they changed the Red materials 3 times, except metals, to get down the filesize on instal file's.
And because of that old and new Red materials is not the same, old will not work in a new version of TC i think to remember.

I did not make the double set of materials, Kai did when he finally after some years start to use Red, after discover he could have shadows in Draftmode when using RedSDK :)
And it was made to our members that use our's Template, config etc. after they start to have RedSDK as default renderengine, many still used LW and did not want to change.

Torfinn

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* April 04, 2019, 09:39:19 AM
#15
A little-known fact: There's a LW Advanced Render mode that shows materials (including transparencies), displays shadows, and is fast enough to qualify as Draft. To demonstrate, download the attached .zip file and open the .tcw (which is v2018). Set the Draft render mode to LW Smooth OpenGL and the Advanced Render mode to "Draft." Render using that AR mode and "examine" the render by dragging with the mouse wheel.

Henry H

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* April 04, 2019, 11:36:47 AM
#16
Thanks Henry

That was nice, guess i should learn more about LW :), as this was new to me.

Torfinn

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