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Wireframe & draft object display performance
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* April 01, 2019, 05:43:34 AM
Hi All,

Sorry another question, this time on performance.

My computer is a modest 16gig AMD 1800X with a Nvidia 610 (or similar GFX from memory). I notice on loading a model, or particularly when turning layers off and on with objects that sometimes I get a very long delay (feels like a minute or two), and looking at task manager in these moments one core is getting hammered flat out, whilst the memory usage creeps up one or two gig during this period. GPU is doing absolutely zero.

I am tempted to buy the RedSDK plugin for my TC2018 as it has GPU enabled rendering for wire frame as an option away from the standard engine. My gut tells me this may not make any difference as all the compute is being used to calculate the objects rather than display it I think - but I am tempted to try it.

Finally I am tempted to buy a 'professional grade' graphics card but again, I am not convinced this will improve anything as I never see my current GPU being utilised unless I have it displayed as a quality render (which I hardly ever do).

Ironically my 1800x is really good on quality render performance as the software actually uses all the cores.

Its not a show stopper, but I wondered what people's thoughts are before I splash a load of ££ on stuff that may make no noticeable difference, at least to my endeavours which at best use draft renders to check things.

Many thanks as always

Adrian


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April 01, 2019, 06:49:12 AM
#1
Several of us experimented a few years ago on the differences between CPU and GPU rendering.  Surprisingly, the resulting images were noticeably different.

TurboCAD's Advanced rendering mode is the only one that uses the GPU and, depending on the version, only if you have gone into the Material definitions and enabled it.

I have asked several times about the best video card series to use with TurboCAD, but haven't gotten any answers (it's like it's a conspiracy or something).  The people here who have NVidia Quadro-family GPUs haven't participated in the closest thing we have to a benchmark (see this thread: http://forums.turbocad.com/index.php/topic,8615.msg94205.html).

From what I have read, SolidWorks takes advantage of the NVidia Quadro P-series and the AMD Radeon Pro WX-series, but a comparison of GPUs showed that AutoCAD worked best with high-end gaming cards.

I wish I could be of more help.  I may be building a new system in the coming weeks or months and I'd like to know the best GPU, too.


Jeff

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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


April 01, 2019, 07:08:24 AM
#2
Found a recommendation for 2017 here: https://turbocaddoc.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/T2UG/pages/90570754/System+Requirements

The NVidia Quadro cards are at the beginning of the list, so I'd start there.


Jeff

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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


* April 01, 2019, 12:53:26 PM
#3
I wish I could be of more help.  I may be building a new system in the coming weeks or months and I'd like to know the best GPU, too.

Incidentally, this is a pretty good video on what hardware for a CAD workstation. The presenter is a little zany but I think it is good info:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-90qEJAVkU

Problem for Turbocad is in the use cases I have specified i.e. would Turbocad farm off preparing the model space and rendering it to a GPU for draft and wireframe. Taskmanager suggests not with native wireframe and Lightworks for draft I think.

This looked promising for my problem:-
https://www.facebook.com/notes/turbocad/redsdk-the-new-gpu-accelerated-wireframe-display-mode/398678533736/

But that means buying the RedSDK plug in to try it which is expensive if performances remains the same (I don't do quality rendering so wouldn't need the primary reason to have it).

Hope the above helps with your new build :)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 01:13:15 PM by adrianh78 »

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* April 01, 2019, 01:04:31 PM
#4
Found a recommendation for 2017 here: https://turbocaddoc.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/T2UG/pages/90570754/System+Requirements

The NVidia Quadro cards are at the beginning of the list, so I'd start there.


Jeff

Thanks for that I really appreciate it, but I am cannot afford to spend £££ without evidence it would make a difference. Based on the evidence I have seen switching visibility on layers, particularly when in draft render, I am not convinced it would improve my problem as my Nvidia gaming card always shows near 0% utilisation with the exception of when displaying and moving around a quality render.

Draft and wireframe only seem to hit a single processor core hard, usually in conjunction with increased memory consumption.

its a real  :o :'(

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* April 03, 2019, 06:06:34 AM
#5
If you are going to spend money, spend it on the REDSdk upgrade. It will make a huge difference in Hidden Line and Draft render speeds, more so than a graphic card upgrade. In fact, the PC I use at work doesn't even have a graphics card. It only has the integrated graphics on the CPU (a measly  i3-2130). And I have no problem with Hidden Line or Draft renders, even on large (300MB) files. Its slow on initial graphics load up, but quick on subsequent loads such as toggling layers on/off.

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TC 21 Deluxe, TC 20 Platinum, TC 2015 Platinum, TC 2016 Platinum, TC 2017 Platinum
i7- 3770 Ivy Bridge 3.4 GHz, 16G Crucial Ballistic, ASRock Extreme 4, EVGA 1060 SSC, Windows 10 Pro 64 Bit


April 03, 2019, 07:01:29 AM
#6
The GPU is only used in Advanced rendering mode (and only if you turn it on).  If you need photorealistic rendering of moderately complex scenes, then a Quadro card is the way to go.  The cheapest of the P-series is limited on memory; if your budget is under $400, then you may want to look at a K2200 (which was a well-regarded card a few years ago, but is still available today).

There are also refurbished Quadro cards available in many of the P-series units (you just have to look for them and prices will vary more than new units).

But I do agree that the RedSDK plug-in is best for Wireframe, Hidden Line and Draft display modes.  The GPU isn't used at all in those.

For the CPU, higher clock rates are better than more cores/threads because so much of TurboCAD only uses one core at a time.  The currently-recommended CPU is the Intel Core i7-8700K for its sweet spot: 3.7 GHz, 4.7 GHz overclock, 6 cores (w/hyper-threading) and about $370 in the stores (as of early second quarter, 2019).


Jeff

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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


* April 03, 2019, 07:15:42 AM
#7

But I do agree that the RedSDK plug-in is best for Wireframe, Hidden Line and Draft display modes.  The GPU isn't used at all in those.


Jeff

Are you sure about that? I thought that the whole advantage of Red SDK was that it used the GPU for Hidden Line and Draft.

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TC 21 Deluxe, TC 20 Platinum, TC 2015 Platinum, TC 2016 Platinum, TC 2017 Platinum
i7- 3770 Ivy Bridge 3.4 GHz, 16G Crucial Ballistic, ASRock Extreme 4, EVGA 1060 SSC, Windows 10 Pro 64 Bit


* April 03, 2019, 08:28:03 AM
#8
Are you sure about that? I thought that the whole advantage of Red SDK was that it used the GPU for Hidden Line and Draft.

In tests I did, it's a tough one to prove.  I monitored using MSi afterburned,   opened a drawing, draft rendered and turned on a layer which I knew would take a while to display.  I had almost zero GPU usage (a little usage was afterburned updating the figures), until the last moment when it was displayed on screen.  So it wasn't doing any calculations by the GPU, just using it to display the image.

What RedSDK appears to do better, is talking between memory and GPU. with minimal cpu involvement.  making screen refresh very quick, and navigating in hidden line and draft appear almost seamless. Lightworks appears to send more information via the CPU, and making navigating in draft a bit slower.  This bit I cannot prove, as RedSDK is updating the draft render so fast, I cannot tell if its being stored in the GPU once rendered, or if it is simply passing memory render to the GPU very fast.

Obviously the above is just what I witnesses, I've no doubt it will vary depending on ones computer system.

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* April 03, 2019, 11:24:55 AM
#9
Thank you very much for all the advice, I really appreciate it

If I make another investment I think I will go RedSDK as I don't do quality rendering so a big gfx card would likely be wasted, but I'm losing the faith in the product a bit if I am honest. I am quite a low skill level Turbocad user, but I am very methodical and stuff like my layer 0 disappearing on loading a drawing I was working on happily the previous day, disappearing buttons, layer text editing not working (check out the case edit on the attached) etc. are not doing my rapidly receding hairline any good!

Moan over, and thank you again  :-[ :)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 01:11:45 PM by adrianh78 »

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* April 03, 2019, 11:49:14 AM
#10
Thank you very much for all the advice, I really appreciate it

If I make another investment I think I will go RedSDK as I don't do quality rendering so a big gfx card would likely be wasted, but I'm losing the faith in the product a bit if I am honest. I am quite a low skill level Turbocad user, but I am very methodical and stuff like my layer 0 disappearing on loading a drawing I was working on happily the previous day, disappearing buttons etc. are not doing my rapidly receding hairline any good!

Moan over, and thank you again  :-[ :)

Hi,
IMHO, I would test a trail of the software before you buy  ;D
Draft render > Lightworks draft smooth open GL works much much better for me than the Redstuff draft while working with the facet editor.

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21,20,19 and 18.Using LightWorks, Anilab lab 5.  HP all in one  23" Touch smart screen with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3. Intel Core i5 ,2.27GHz,4 GB ram.


* April 03, 2019, 12:02:26 PM
#11

For the CPU, higher clock rates are better than more cores/threads because so much of TurboCAD only uses one core at a time.  The currently-recommended CPU is the Intel Core i7-8700K for its sweet spot: 3.7 GHz, 4.7 GHz overclock, 6 cores (w/hyper-threading) and about $370 in the stores (as of early second quarter, 2019).
Jeff

Its a shame they don't code it to use more cores for general use, but my guess is the code based is probably routed into single core processor technology going way back, and so to fix this would require a total rewrite perhaps?


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* April 03, 2019, 12:03:34 PM
#12
I just wanted to say thanks again for all the help and support - incredibly kind, thank you  :)

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* April 03, 2019, 12:05:54 PM
#13
Thank you very much for all the advice, I really appreciate it

If I make another investment I think I will go RedSDK as I don't do quality rendering so a big gfx card would likely be wasted, but I'm losing the faith in the product a bit if I am honest. I am quite a low skill level Turbocad user, but I am very methodical and stuff like my layer 0 disappearing on loading a drawing I was working on happily the previous day, disappearing buttons etc. are not doing my rapidly receding hairline any good!

Moan over, and thank you again  :-[ :)

Hi,
IMHO, I would test a trail of the software before you buy  ;D
Draft render > Lightworks draft smooth open GL works much much better for me than the Redstuff draft while working with the facet editor.

Thanks for the advice :)

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