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Question for you kitchen designers!
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April 07, 2013, 10:32:37 AM
A few questions for you kitchen designers out there.
When you design a kitchen in 3D, do you just use simple blocks for the cabinets of the right size and then add differing types of doors on, or do you make up the details of the cabinets etc. I can understand doing all the details if you are a kitchen cabinet maker but I think I'm right in saying that over here in Europe we always use standard, factory made, kitchen cabinets so there's not a lot of point in going for all the detail and the designer is only preparing a pretty picture for the client to visualise what it will look like so there's no point in detailing what is going on inside the cabinet?

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Nick
(United Kingdom)
TurboCAD 20 Pro Platinum.
Windows 7 64 bit.


April 07, 2013, 10:51:27 AM
#1
Nick

I use boxes so that if required I can use the "box" data for database cutting lists. I don't bother with the multiboring holes, shelf pegs and wall cabinet hangers etc.
I detail shelves, because of the above and so that if required, I can show a customer the internals.

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* April 08, 2013, 08:33:37 PM
#2
Nick,

Similar to DAZ, I create a full 3D cabinet with all the individual parts the same way I build it in the shop, for the same reason, so I can use the database to create cutting lists and know they will be as accurate as I draw them (relying on my math skills and a calculator to create a list with hundreds of parts doesn't always treat me so well).  :)  I also do not bother with details such as adjustable shelf holes, pins, hinges, drawer slides, etc. 

DAZ, I don't understand what you mean by detailing the shelves though.

I have started creating these cabinets and making them into blocks to speed up my drawings while still retaining all the info I need for my lists.  Still have a ways to go though to get it humming the way I'd like.

I do agree with you Nick that if you are not building the cabinets, I see no need for all the extra details and time, and think your approach would be just fine, in Europe as well as here in the U.S.

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April 09, 2013, 02:09:41 AM
#3
Dan,

I have the shelf detailed so that in the database they are listed and also sometimes the customer may want to see an internal render of their kitchen (turn the door layer off).
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 02:52:56 AM by Darrel Carl Durose »

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* April 09, 2013, 08:01:24 AM
#4
DAZ,

Thanks.  I do the same, and even have gone so far as to include the drawers for inclusion in the database.

Dan

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Pro Platinum 18.2
Running on HP HDX laptop w/win7 Home Intel Duo Core, 2.53GHz 4GB RAM, 64Bit OS


April 09, 2013, 08:13:39 AM
#5
For someone that is designing/sending-to-cabinet-manufacturing-shop, do you guys feel the money saved from not using a cabinet-designing-specific program which is fully parametric and associative (I'm thinking something like Cabinetvision here; or 20/20 for manufacturers' modular-cabinets) is worth the time and effort (and limitations of use) of using the full-CAD 3D-modeling-program, TurboCAD Pro to create cabinet models and production-drawings (and databases/cut-lists)?

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


April 09, 2013, 08:25:05 AM
#6
Dan

I don't include drawer boxes as it is not necessary at my end. Also saves a bit of editing and file kb's.

Alvin

The only "kind of" limitation of using TC for this work is time initially creating the symbols and the little extra work when resizing them. I know once I have all the content that I will be able to plan a kitchen or bedroom quicker than in Articad (which was the best design package I have used outside of TC). Articad, 20/20 and others have their own limitations.

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


April 09, 2013, 08:36:34 AM
#7
By going through Don Cheke's excellent tutorial for kitchen cabinets I can see that once you've set up the initial settings for lighting etc and drawn some initial cabinets and made blocks of them then it's not too much work to then resize the blocks etc to arrive at all the cabinets needed and then put them together in the room. I am a relative newcomer to both TC and 3D though so correct me if I'm wrong. I guess also that you keep a library of other 3D objects such as wine bottles (a kitchen wouldn't be the same without them)  ;D

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Nick
(United Kingdom)
TurboCAD 20 Pro Platinum.
Windows 7 64 bit.


April 09, 2013, 08:58:43 AM
#8
...
Alvin

The only "kind of" limitation of using TC for this work is time initially creating the symbols and the little extra work when resizing them. I know once I have all the content that I will be able to plan a kitchen or bedroom quicker than in Articad (which was the best design package I have used outside of TC). Articad, 20/20 and others have their own limitations.

Thanks Darrel,

That's good to know, coming from someone that does it full-time-  and has done it full-time-  with outstanding results, as much as you.

I intend to upgrade to version-19-ProPlatinum soon-  as soon as it available from re-sellers at lower price-points-  so I will continue with my development into this kitchen/bathroom/garage/etc.-cabinet designing.

(I did a project recently in 3D that was a bit difficult of a design, and the cabinet-shop was able to use my drawings very beneficially in their designing/building the cabinets just as I intended; I was very pleased with the customers' final kitchen).

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


April 09, 2013, 09:19:34 AM
#9
Nick

You've got it - use xrefs for these (keeps the customer file small). I have a template and also sometimes just use an existing drawing that contains them. xRefs I am using more and more of for the likes of handles etc.

Alvin
Thanks  :)

One thing most kitchen and bedroom designers would benefit from is a smart scaling tool where by we either stretch using the mouse, or enter a new dimension, and rather than it scaling everything it scales out from the middle. Yes we can use surfaces and the edit tool but then information gets lost for the database. Still we will have to wait until enough TC users request this feature.
Yes, I am reminded by your comment "the cabinet-shop was able to use my drawings very beneficially" of a kitchen i did a few years back where I had to create full scale drawings for the manufacturers. See below:

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


April 09, 2013, 09:23:24 AM
#10
That's a very sexy curvy kitchen Darrel!  ;D

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Nick
(United Kingdom)
TurboCAD 20 Pro Platinum.
Windows 7 64 bit.


April 09, 2013, 09:25:22 AM
#11
Are there any dissadvantages using Xrefs? I seem to remember getting into using them with Autocad some 15 years ago and as far as I know one just has to remember to send all Xrefs along with the drawing to other contractors?

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Nick
(United Kingdom)
TurboCAD 20 Pro Platinum.
Windows 7 64 bit.


April 09, 2013, 09:26:57 AM
#12
Yeah Nick

The frontals, cornice, plinths, pelmet and the open end shelf were made from Parapan which is a solid acrylic material. Silestone and Glass Worktops......It can be yours for £32,000.00!

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


April 09, 2013, 09:27:34 AM
#13

Alvin
Thanks  :)

One thing most kitchen and bedroom designers would benefit from is a smart scaling tool where by we either stretch using the mouse, or enter a new dimension, and rather than it scaling everything it scales out from the middle. Yes we can use surfaces and the edit tool but then information gets lost for the database. Still we will have to wait until enough TC users request this feature.
Yes, I am reminded by your comment "the cabinet-shop was able to use my drawings very beneficially" of a kitchen i did a few years back where I had to create full scale drawings for the manufacturers. See below:

Yes, I see that.  If I have a say...  a Block or X-Ref that is a 20"x30" cabinet-door, with 4" "rails & stiles", and I want to re-size that door (simply/easily) if I just re-scale it, my 4" "rails & stiles" don't stay at 4", as they should be.  That's a pain- for database/cut-list use, as well as accurate representation of the actual cabinet-door.

That's kind of what lead me to ask the question regarding other cabinet-specific software.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


April 09, 2013, 09:29:22 AM
#14
Yeah Nick

The frontals, cornice, plinths, pelmet and the open end shelf were made from Parapan which is a solid acrylic material. Silestone and Glass Worktops......It can be yours for £32,000.00!
I couldn't afford your drawings Darrel, let alone the kitchen  ;D

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Nick
(United Kingdom)
TurboCAD 20 Pro Platinum.
Windows 7 64 bit.


April 09, 2013, 09:30:55 AM
#15
Xrefs:

Disadvantages are yes, they are only references to a drawing file but they can be "binded" to the drawing so they are block contained within it.

The main reason I use them is so I do not end up with files that are needlessly massive in MB's.

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


April 09, 2013, 09:36:38 AM
#16
On the subject of using a smart stretch with the mouse I seem to remember that at the last point of the tutorial I did precisely that with the block to make alternative cabinet widths. Isn't that the same?

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Nick
(United Kingdom)
TurboCAD 20 Pro Platinum.
Windows 7 64 bit.


April 09, 2013, 09:40:00 AM
#17
I don't charge for the design or drawings Nick..... just hope a customer likes and purchases it. They did on this occasion. I did not have to change anything....they even liked my handle choice. They actually said to me we have been everywhere for someone to design a kitchen like what we want but they all said, "Sorry we cannot do this for you".

Could it be because of the software they use I wonder......They don't Have TurboCAD!  ;D

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


April 09, 2013, 09:45:19 AM
#18
I don't charge for the design or drawings Nick..... just hope a customer likes and purchases it. They did on this occasion. I did not have to change anything....they even liked my handle choice. They actually said to me we have been everywhere for someone to design a kitchen like what we want but they all said, "Sorry we cannot do this for you".

Could it be because of the software they use I wonder......They don't Have TurboCAD!  ;D

I had some wealthy friends (a couple) that a few years ago had their dream-home designed and built by one of our local top high-end homebuilding contractors.  He uses what is considered one of the locally-best cabinet-makers.

My friend- the wife- was describing to the cabinet-maker how she wanted the kitchen island to be:  "I'd like it to curve on both ends, like this", as she motioned on the slab what she wanted.  To that the cabinet-maker replied,  "But, Ma'am, wood does not come round".
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 09:54:39 AM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


April 09, 2013, 09:54:10 AM
#19
Nick

For speed (if like me you are designing kitchens for a living) I have created a symbol library that contains all the "standard" options for kitchen cabinets:

150, 250, 260, 300, 350, 400, 450, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000 widths Highline, Drawerline, Drawerpacks, Appliance housings, wall units, curved units etc etc. With handings LH & RH

Once this is created a Design can be quickly created just by dragging in symbols, thus speeding up designing and changing things. Yes it take time to set up but once you have it will save time in the long run. You have to think that we need to make frontal, handle and worktop changes easy. I just drag in a symbol that replaces all my current frontal designs and the same for other elements. Setting up the Symbols is key for this. I do not have all the frontals on hidden layer like how the Furniture Maker works as this would not work for me. I have many hundreds of frontal designs and handle choices and can not comprehend editing hundreds of symbols when I want to add another design. I just create a new set of doors or handles as one symbol and drag it into my drawing and all the current frontals update with the new one.  :)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 09:56:08 AM by Darrel Carl Durose »

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


April 09, 2013, 10:00:14 AM
#20
That's the advantage of CAD though isn't it. I also have a number of standard 2D details that I reuse. The biggest problem for you though must be the variety and keeping track of all the variations?

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Nick
(United Kingdom)
TurboCAD 20 Pro Platinum.
Windows 7 64 bit.


April 09, 2013, 10:08:00 AM
#21
Yes Nick....but that is also an advantage using TC, even the "Pro" kitchen software packages don't have all the variety of doors and unit options. Hence why the designers of have to say "Sorry I cannot show you how it will be exactly because we do not have the graphics".

With TC, we can design from scratch what we want. Most "Pro" packages you have to request them and it usually cost money and takes time.

Where I have just started to work they use Articad, but the MD asked me to help design a Cob Shop for him. why? because Articad has not got the Graphics....see below:
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 10:18:12 AM by Darrel Carl Durose »

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


April 09, 2013, 10:14:31 AM
#22
Alvin

"the cabinet-maker replied,  "But, Ma'am, wood does not come round"."

The "Cabinet Maker" sounds a bit dense. Does he also think the world is flat?  ;D
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 01:15:18 PM by Darrel Carl Durose »

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


April 09, 2013, 10:17:46 AM
#23
Yes I agree that it's not always the best answer to have specific software. I like you renditions and the detail. Even the toaster in image 3 has the toast popped up, brilliant!
Have to ask though, what's a Cob Shop?

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Nick
(United Kingdom)
TurboCAD 20 Pro Platinum.
Windows 7 64 bit.


April 09, 2013, 10:19:44 AM
#24
Nick
Thanks

A Cob Shop = Sandwich Bar  ;D

The Toaster and some of the other machines are from Google's 3D Warehouse *.skp file.....The Toaster actually is one of the best models I have found on there. All the materials and textures (even the bread texture core and crust) are very realistic. I think all I had to do was resize it  :)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 10:24:44 AM by Darrel Carl Durose »

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* April 13, 2013, 11:00:10 PM
#25
For someone that is designing/sending-to-cabinet-manufacturing-shop, do you guys feel the money saved from not using a cabinet-designing-specific program which is fully parametric and associative (I'm thinking something like Cabinetvision here; or 20/20 for manufacturers' modular-cabinets) is worth the time and effort (and limitations of use) of using the full-CAD 3D-modeling-program, TurboCAD Pro to create cabinet models and production-drawings (and databases/cut-lists)?

-Alvin

Alvin,

For me as a custom cabinet maker, I would need to look at Cabinetvision, KCD, or Microvellum (Microvellum looks to be the front runner as it is an A-CAD based program) vs. 20/20, as they are geared more toward custom cabinet shops.  $ was my primary motivator for getting into T-CAD, as well as finding something that doesn't limit me too much.  Starting out with Deluxe, there were some limitations, now with v18 plat. the limits are my own abilities. 

I must say I enjoy the flexibility that T-CAD gives me, and do have fun with the program and expanding my abilities, however the time and effort to complete a design can be considerable and is a concern.  I still find it hard to justify the cost of some of those other programs that start in the $4k-$5k (I believe) range and go up from there.  In addition, a lot of those programs have limitations of their own, many of them seem to be drag n drop only programs.  Can't really design a curvy kitchen like DAZ did with that!  One other thing is that I believe T-CAD has better rendering capabilities than most other "pro" programs that great talent such as DAZ and others on here know how to make use of, and remind people like me how much more I have to learn about CADDING.  I think that even the simple hidden line render looks more professional from T-CAD than those others.  I also don't think those other programs can import models much if at all.

DAZ's system using symbols to make easy changes sound very interesting, may have to investigate that when I get some time.

"the cabinet-maker replied,  "But, Ma'am, wood does not come round".  Yep, you have to look pretty hard to find those rare "round" trees! ;D

Just my opinion though,
Dan
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 02:52:51 PM by Wooddan »

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April 14, 2013, 10:21:56 AM
#26
[...  ]

Alvin,

For me as a custom cabinet maker, I would need to look at Cabinetvision, KCD, or Microvellum (Microvellum looks to be the front runner as it is an A-CAD based program) vs. 20/20, as they are geared more toward custom cabinet shops.  $ was my primary motivator for getting into T-CAD, as well as finding something that doesn't limit me too much.  Starting out with Deluxe, there were some limitations, now with v18 plat. the limits are my own abilities. 

I must say I enjoy the flexibility that T-CAD gives me, and do have fun with the program and expanding my abilities, however the time and effort to complete a design can be considerable and is a concern.  I still find it hard to justify the cost of some of those other programs that start in the $4k-$5k (I believe) range and go up from there.  In addition, a lot of those programs have limitations of their own, many of them seem to be drag n drop only programs.  Can't really design a curvy kitchen like DAZ did with that!  One other thing is that I believe T-CAD has better rendering capabilities than most other "pro" programs that great talent such as DAZ and others on here know how to make use of, and remind people like me how much more I have to learn about CADDING.  I think that even the simple hidden line render looks more professional from T-CAD than those others.  I also don't think those other programs can import models much if at all.

DAZ's system using symbols to make easy changes sound very interesting, my have to investigate that when I get some time.

"the cabinet-maker replied,  "But, Ma'am, wood does not come round".  Yep, you have to look pretty hard to find those rare "round" trees! ;D

Just my opinion though,
Dan

Hi Dan,

Coming from the residential-construction industry (General-Contractor; Framing-SubContractor-- even built a bit of my own custom-cabinets), and with an intermediate-level knowelege/use of TurboCAD, including some 3D Modeling, I have to agree with everything you wrote--  the whole bit.

Thanks for the input Dan; I appreciate that, coming from a custom-cabinet maker as well as a designer/detailer/specifier, and fellow TurboCAD user.

----
Around here (south-central California, US- Bakersfield) most all the custom-cabinet makers seem to use Cabinetvision, and the modular folks use 20/20 (of course).

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V21PP; V20.2PP; V19DL; V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)