OK can anyone re create this same problem?  I upgraded yesterday to Turbocad 19.2, Build 54.2, using this on an XP machine with a Wacom tablet.  I was having this same exact problem with version 19.1.  Here it is drawing attached:

I drew the rod with keyway and it seems to have come out OK, in paperspace it looks good.  The problem starts happening afterward. Here is what went wrong with the snaps not properly snapping to the correct locations:

1. Using workplane by facet tool, choose rod end (smaller diameter) as workplane.
2. Set snap to vertex.
3. Using Triple point circle tool, create circle on (smaller) outside diameter of rod end tracing the OD.
3. Use workplane by facet tool to set workplane on opposite end of rod.
4.  Using triple point circle tool, create circle on opposite end of rod tracing outline of    outside diameter.
5.  Change snap to center.
6.  Using 3d polyline tool, draw line between two center points of end circles.
7.  Using workplane by facet tool, change work plane to smaller diameter rod end.
8.  Using angular construction line, snap first point to circle center.
9.  Change snap to middle point
10.  Snap to middle point of keyway floor or seat.
11.  Change snap to vertex.
12.  Snap second angular construction line to vertex of 3d polyline,
13.   Change snap to middle point
14.  Snap to the same middle point of keyway floor or seat.
15.  Zoom way, way in to the center of the circle-vertex of the polyline, and examine the location of the angular construction lines.  They do not intersect the vertex of the 3d polyline, of which was set as per above to be at the center of the circle.



So I tried re creating the same problem by just drawing a circle in the same drawing by:

1.  Draw a circle 1 inch diameter.
2.  Set snap to center.
3.  Using work plane by 3 point tool, snap origin to center of circle.
4.  Change snap to quadrant point
5.  Snap x and y axes of work plane to quadrants of circle.
6.   Change snap back to center.
7.   Using 3d Polyline tool, snap first point of polyline to circle center.
8    Enter in values of 0 for X and Y, and 1 for Z, so that polyline is perpendicular to circle and workplane.
9.  Using angular construction line, snap first point to circle center.
10.  Change snap to middle point
11.  Snap to middle point of keyway floor or seat.
12.  Change snap to vertex.
13.  Snap second angular construction line to vertex of 3d polyline,
14.   Change snap to middle point
15.  Snap to the same middle point of keyway floor or seat.

16.  Zoom way way in.  You can see that neither construction line intersect the vertex of the 3D poly line, despite the fact that the vertex of the 3d Polyline was snapped to the center of the circle.

When I repeat your steps 8 and 10, my angular construction line is located correctly, whereas yours is not.

Henry H

OK so if it's not a bug, any suggestions as to what you think I might be doing wrong?

...Also, did you start from scratch, starting with step 1?  On an XP machine running Deluxe 19.1 or .2?

...Also, did you start from scratch, starting with step 1?  On an XP machine running Deluxe 19.1 or .2?

No, I worked in your drawing (verifying each of your own steps), on an XP machine running 19.2.

Henry H

OK thanks.

So, given the above steps that I took, what would you (or anyone) suggest I do differently, that would prevent the construction lines from not intersecting the vertex of the 3D poly line?

OK so if it's not a bug, any suggestions as to what you think I might be doing wrong?

Not sure. But there's one peculiarity I noticed: The objects in your drawing are so far apart that I cannot zoom in as close as I'd like. Copy-and-pasted the rod, the 3D Polyline, and the circle on the rod face into a new drawing in which Precision is set to 10. Was then able to zoom way in and saw that the circle isn't quite on the rod face; it's -1.6723E-06 in outside of the part. Not sure whether that's the cause of your problem.

Henry H

I assume you are talking about precision in Drawing Setup>Space Units?

I'll try that out.  I have mine set to 4 if that's what you mean.

Are you suggesting that if objects in a drawing are far apart, that this could cause a snap problem?

OK thanks.

So, given the above steps that I took, what would you (or anyone) suggest I do differently, that would prevent the construction lines from not intersecting the vertex of the 3D poly line?

Nadsab,
I’m not using deluxe  or on xp  <but > Start your test  drawing  > a  1” circle center@ 0,0, then insert a point >”draw point” a cross @ 0,0, Now insert more points  using coordinate entry at all the other coordinates you’re planning to “snap” an object . Now, only enable “intersection snap” or use “I” seke with “no snap” on then continue your test drawing  . Snapping to the points you placed.  You can always check the “coordinates”. Do you still have the problem?

"I assume you are talking about precision in Drawing Setup>Space Units?
I'll try that out.  I have mine set to 4 if that's what you mean."

Yup, that's what I mean.

"Are you suggesting that if objects in a drawing are far apart, that this could cause a snap problem?"

If an object is too far from the World origin -- say a few thousand drawing units -- then accuracy problems do arise. In the attached screenshot, note the PosY and PosZ values for the selected circle.

Henry H

Quote from: nadsab on May 14, 2013, 02:09:25 PM

OK thanks.

So, given the above steps that I took, what would you (or anyone) suggest I do differently, that would prevent the construction lines from not intersecting the vertex of the 3D poly line?

Nadsab,
I’m not using deluxe  or on xp  <but > Start your test  drawing  > a  1” circle center@ 0,0, then insert a point >”draw point” a cross @ 0,0, Now insert more points  using coordinate entry at all the other coordinates you’re planning to “snap” an object . Now, only enable “intersection snap” or use “I” seke with “no snap” on then continue your test drawing  . Snapping to the points you placed.  You can always check the “coordinates”. Do you still have the problem?

No, I don't have the same problem, assuming that by "draw point” a cross, you mean use the cross on the point palette.

What I did, was start a new drawing and only created a circle at 0,0, placed cross at center of circle, placed a second cross point at a quadrant point of the circle, set snap to intersect and drew a 3d polyline between two crosses and they seem to intersect AOK.

But how will this scenario work, if I have to draw 3 3d polylines to create an X Y and Z axis to set a workplane for a specific view that I wish to create for a named view?  This is what Tech support is suggesting that I do instead of using construction lines to set a workplane axis with 3 point workplane tool, since as it was stated to me earlier today  to not use construction lines since these are strictly 2D objects and that there are quirks with construction llines when using them in 3d.  However when using 3d polyllines to create a workplane using the workplane by 3 point too, I am having that same snap issue anyway so I am back where I started.

"I assume you are talking about precision in Drawing Setup>Space Units?
I'll try that out.  I have mine set to 4 if that's what you mean."

Yup, that's what I mean.

"Are you suggesting that if objects in a drawing are far apart, that this could cause a snap problem?"

If an object is too far from the World origin -- say a few thousand drawing units -- then accuracy problems do arise. In the attached screenshot, note the PosY and PosZ values for the selected circle.

Henry H

What do you mean by "a few thousand drawing units"?  In other words, if I have several objects in a large drawing file, and I zoom to extents and objects appear as smallish dots, that would be a few thousand drawing units LOL?

if so, this might make sense for some of my drawings, but I was still having this problem with the drawing I posted, and all I had in that one was a simple rod and a circle relatively close together.  It almost sounds like one can have only one main object or drawing in each drawing file and if there are any other objects in a drawing file, no matter how a work plane is set on either object, there can be snap problems with either construction lines or 3d poly lines etc.

Quote from: Henry Hubich on May 14, 2013, 07:24:26 PM

"I assume you are talking about precision in Drawing Setup>Space Units?
I'll try that out.  I have mine set to 4 if that's what you mean."

Yup, that's what I mean.

"Are you suggesting that if objects in a drawing are far apart, that this could cause a snap problem?"

If an object is too far from the World origin -- say a few thousand drawing units -- then accuracy problems do arise. In the attached screenshot, note the PosY and PosZ values for the selected circle.

Henry H

What do you mean by "a few thousand drawing units"?  In other words, if I have several objects in a large drawing file, and I zoom to extents and objects appear as smallish dots, that would be a few thousand drawing units LOL?

if so, this might make sense for some of my drawings, but I was still having this problem with the drawing I posted, and all I had in that one was a simple rod and a circle relatively close together.  It almost sounds like one can have only one main object or drawing in each drawing file and if there are any other objects in a drawing file, no matter how a work plane is set on either object, there can be snap problems with either construction lines or 3d poly lines etc.

"Drawing units" are the basic dimensional units in a drawing. In your "Snap Problem.tcw," the drawing units are inches.

The problem I'm trying to point out is that the rod and circle in that drawing are located many thousand drawing units away from the World Origin -- which you can verify by setting the Workplane to "World," selecting the rod or the circle, and reading the values in the three Pos fields of the Inspector Bar. Since such remoteness is rather unusual in a TCad drawing, it is not widely recognized that it leads to a loss of accuracy for various operations performed on the object, but it's a fact nevertheless.

Henry H

Ok how could those high X and Y values happen by clicking on File>New>New from scratch?

Ok how could those high X and Y values happen by clicking on File>New>New from scratch?

Interesting question. I really don't know.

Henry H

Quote from: Dean on May 14, 2013, 05:50:54 PM

Quote from: nadsab on May 14, 2013, 02:09:25 PM

OK thanks.

So, given the above steps that I took, what would you (or anyone) suggest I do differently, that would prevent the construction lines from not intersecting the vertex of the 3D poly line?

Nadsab,
I’m not using deluxe  or on xp  <but > Start your test  drawing  > a  1” circle center@ 0,0, then insert a point >”draw point” a cross @ 0,0, Now insert more points  using coordinate entry at all the other coordinates you’re planning to “snap” an object . Now, only enable “intersection snap” or use “I” seke with “no snap” on then continue your test drawing  . Snapping to the points you placed.  You can always check the “coordinates”. Do you still have the problem?

No, I don't have the same problem, assuming that by "draw point” a cross, you mean use the cross on the point palette.

What I did, was start a new drawing and only created a circle at 0,0, placed cross at center of circle, placed a second cross point at a quadrant point of the circle, set snap to intersect and drew a 3d polyline between two crosses and they seem to intersect AOK.

But how will this scenario work, if I have to draw 3 3d polylines to create an X Y and Z axis to set a workplane for a specific view that I wish to create for a named view?   This is what Tech support is suggesting that I do instead of using construction lines to set a workplane axis with 3 point workplane tool, since as it was stated to me earlier today  to not use construction lines since these are strictly 2D objects and that there are quirks with construction llines when using them in 3d.  However when using 3d polyllines to create a workplane using the workplane by 3 point too, I am having that same snap issue anyway so I am back where I started.

Does deluxe give you the option for a 3d point?
When you select the “point tool” there should be an option for 2d or 3d point. You'll see this option in the inspector bar and right click menu. With a  3d point you can use the coordinate bar to place the 3d point’s x,y,z coordinates or draw  a 2d point then  adjust its “z” position in the inspector bar. If you do not see a “z” field in the inspector bar then  right click anywhere in the drawing window and  “toggle 2d 3d.

I did some more checking.  I created a new template file a week ago and when I open up the template file I tried drawing a circle and it was positioned correctly - I mean the x y z positions in the inspector bar of the circle were at or near zero.

So then I copied an object - just a slotted clamping collar from another drawing file, that's all that was in the file, just the collar, and then pasted it into the newly opened template- drawing.

I checked the file that I copied from and for some reason it has those world origin locations of the part in the inspector bar that you posted above, don't know why.

For some reason the location that it was pasted to, were the hute world origin locations, so they apparently carried over from the other drawing.

So I tried to reset the location to 0,0,0, by typing into the inspector bar (in the copied to drwing), and the component moved apparently to the 000 location, but then it dis appears when I try to rotate it.

OK here is something else.  Although I re positioned it to near the world origin, I got a message saying that the position and target point can not be the same.  So when I select the object and click on camera properties for the object, the target point and positions are identical.  Could this cause the object to dis appear when I try to view it from a different angle?

Does deluxe give you the option for a 3d point?

No I don't think Deluxe has one, checked the point palette and it's not there.  Don't see it in the inspector bar either.

Quote from: Dean on May 14, 2013, 09:10:09 PM

Does deluxe give you the option for a 3d point?

No I don't think Deluxe has one, checked the point palette and it's not there.  Don't see it in the inspector bar either.

When you have one of the Point tools active, look on the Inspector Bar or the Local Menu for "2D Point" and "3D Point". "Shift+Tab" to the coordinate fields and input X,Y & Z values, then "Enter" to place the point.

See Point Tools in the Wiki. A picture there shows where 3D Point is.

OK here is something else.  Although I re positioned it to near the world origin, I got a message saying that the position and target point can not be the same.  So when I select the object and click on camera properties for the object, the target point and positions are identical.  Could this cause the object to dis appear when I try to view it from a different angle?

Weird. And it doesn't seem to make sense, because when you switch views you are changing the "position" (which means the position of the camera, not the part).


Henry H

....I know that it is not the best pactice to copy objects and then paste them into new (empty) drawings, but is the world origin location data contained in a 3d surface itself - I mean does that automatically get copied when selecting a 3d surface as well

Although I selected a 3d surfce and set it's positon to 0,0,0, in the inspector bar, the x and Y values for coordinate field are sky high.  If I have only one object in a drawing, and I re set the position to near the world origin location, should not the co ordiante fields be low as well?

Interesting quirky behavior.  Think I got a fix for my particular situation or drawing style LOL.  when I open up a new template file to create a blank drawing, and then paste into it this 3d surface I have been talking about, coordinate fields are approximately 48, 4.8 million and 56 thousand.  Very weird.

But when I open up a second template file to create a second drawing, and prior to pasting in the same 3d surface -  if I just draw a circle or a line in the empty drawing file, and THEN paste in the surface, the co ordinate fields are normal i.e. single digits.

So I guess had I done this it could have saved me a lot of aggravation just drew a short line or circle or something, before pasting in a surface.

Just curious is this normal - the way it's supposed to work?  If you paste something in, there has to be an additional object in the drawing file, so that there is a kind of reference to the world origin so the pasted in object has a reference to position itself to?

Interesting quirky behavior.  Think I got a fix for my particular situation or drawing style LOL.  when I open up a new template file to create a blank drawing, and then paste into it this 3d surface I have been talking about, coordinate fields are approximately 48, 4.8 million and 56 thousand.  Very weird.

But when I open up a second template file to create a second drawing, and prior to pasting in the same 3d surface -  if I just draw a circle or a line in the empty drawing file, and THEN paste in the surface, the co ordinate fields are normal i.e. single digits.

So I guess had I done this it could have saved me a lot of aggravation just drew a short line or circle or something, before pasting in a surface.

Just curious is this normal - the way it's supposed to work?  If you paste something in, there has to be an additional object in the drawing file, so that there is a kind of reference to the world origin so the pasted in object has a reference to position itself to?

No, No, and No. Not normal, not the way it's supposed to work, and there should be no need for an additional object in the file.

Henry H

Ok so is this a bug?  If you think it might be, I can upload the file let me know if you want to look att...

No, No, and No. Not normal, not the way it's supposed to work, and there should be no need for an additional object in the file.

Henry H

Well yes, you are correct if one uses symbols and the library, there is no need to have multiple instances via copy-paste of the same object in a drawing file.

However, the fact remains, that the copy-paste tool is still there and can provide this functionality, and is able to provide multiple instances of the same surface in the same drawing.  No where in the manual did I see any reference to the effect - do not place multiple copy and paste objects in large drawing files, because if you do, if the objects are a few thousand drawing units away from the world origin, work plane errors can occur.

And as a novice user, if I see copy - paste in the menu, beginners tend to use that.  Not on the scale that I did, but it's a sure bet that I am not the only one who has used copy and paste to paste multiple objects in the same drawing file instead of using the library palette.  So if it is to be defined as a bug, then it should be corrected.  However if this is just the way Turbocad is, and is defined as a "quirk", then a reference should be made to this effect in the documentation as to this issue, so that beginner users are aware of it and don't waste precious time.

I did a search of my TurboCad Vesion 19 users guide for the term "world origin", and found not one reference to the term.  This was a copy of the manual that came with a fresh install that was emailed to me from TC Tech Support just two days ago for the latest TC build.

...also, your attachment above shows seven digits.  I dug this out of the wiki: "The World Coordinate System (WCS) is the internal,
high accuracy (10 digits) and absolute coordinate system. " So even though my objects are way far away from the world origin, they are within seven digits to the left of the decimal point.  The wiki however states, that the world co ordinate system is accurate to within ten digits.   So something is definitely amiss here - the wiki is not congruent with my experience.  Either that or it should be stated that  if an object is (at least) in distance seven or more digits away from the world origin, workplane problems can occur.

In the mean time, I may have to re do about 90 drawings so I can get dimensioned prints out of them.  I'll have to check every one because I have a lot of parts with keyways in them and if they are slightly skewed - or off relative to a workplane I set for paperspace, the front and side, top views etc  won't show up in paperspace well due to hidden lines that are not supposed to be showing and slightly crooked or non perpendicular (to a workplane) bores.

The reason why I did not catch this earlier - I was focusing on doing un dimensioned iso views only  for the patent filing.  Had I set a few viewports in paperspace, showing front, side etc views - instead of isometric views from the start, I would have caught this earlier and prevented a lot of extra work.  It never occured to me to do that though, as long as the iso views looked OK I was happy.

I admit that most folks probably don't have large drawing files with duplicated 3d surfaces repeatedly copy and pasted into them - but that's the way I started out because at the time it seemed a convenient way for me to do it - since I have to show several different configurations of my widgets in perspective views for the patent filing.   So I liked the idea of having sometimes up to a half dozen pages in paperspace - in the same drawing file(s) - with the  same widget showing in different positions.  It is easier to keep track of my paperwork given that I have 53 pages of drawings with over 200 drawing figures broken up over about a dozen or so drawing files.

Each page in paperspace sometimes has about a half dozen drawing figures (viewports ) on it of the same widget, shown in different positions - which is the correct format for patent filings.  That's why I was copy pasting the same widget into the same drawing file - and changing the positions of the components in each drawing figure.  Doing this though created a huge drawing file and that's why I suspect I had the problem because of  the World origin issue you mentioned above.

If anyone at Turbocad management is reading this, if you want proof as to how frustrating this problem has been, go back in this thread and read the post I made on March 19.  Because I had been trying to figure out what was wrong with my dimensioned prints at least since that time, and have been spending weeks and weeks trying to figure this out, and only found the answer two days ago, thanks to the good help I had from Henry.

It took 8 weeks to get a definitive answer as to what the problem is for apparently a well known problem (or documentary) omission.  One person even suggested that I do not understand 3d space despite the fact that I have been tinkering around electonics and computers since 1974, designed e-commerce sites for many years which took in millions of bucks in sales, and have been an amature printmaker (artist) for over a decade doing woodcut prints and am a woodworker who can make dovetail joints with a .0015 inch glue gap, and built from rough sawn lumber in my garage 18 kitchen cabinets that the commercial suppliers can not hold a candle to LOL.

Next time I won't do it that way and break up the drawing files into much smaller file sizes, so these drawing errors won't occur.  I guess the moral of the story is that one can not have huge drawing files in Turbocad because in these situations the workplane axes will be slightly off - so break up your file sizes to managable sizes.  And using the library palette as an alternative to repeatedly copying and pasting the same part into the same drawing might help too.

It would be an interesting test to put several of the same symbol in a huge drawing file and see if this same World origin issue occurs with workplanes as it does with copy - pasted surfces.

Re your reply #73:

Guess I wasn't clear. There should be no need for a drawing to contain an object before pasting something else into it. And there is nothing wrong with copy-and-pasting.

Henry H

"And as a novice user, if I see copy - paste in the menu, beginners tend to use that.  Not on the scale that I did, but it's a sure bet that I am not the only one who has used copy and paste to paste multiple objects in the same drawing file instead of using the library palette." 

Nadsab, Do you have to copy and paste? Can you explain why and what is your intention for copy from one drawing and paste into a new drawing.
Honestly, I rarely ever do .So I tried and .....
 :)I have found a bug  in V19 and V20 platinum with copy and paste . see attached picture. I pasted into a new drawing a circle, line and point.  The circle was originally drawn at its center 0,0. When I pasted into a new drawing  the circle’s center was at  X- 9-7/8” and  Y- 3-3/8”. So I selected everything  and put the reference point  at the circle’s center then while everything was still selected I placed the reference point at 0,0. This way all objects will maintain their original coordinates and relation to each other form the original drawing. See the attached picture the circle is selected  and the inspector bar is showing  its center at 0,0 but the selection info palette is displaying an error in the x,y center coordinates. No matter what I try I can’t get the selection info to display the correct x,y, coordinates of the circle.
I don’t copy and paste that often.  I use blocks and symbols  from the library and the “extract from” command.
The “extract from” command functions without errors. All objects and their originally drawn coordinates come into a new file as expected.
Does deluxe have “extract from” ?

"And as a novice user, if I see copy - paste in the menu, beginners tend to use that.  Not on the scale that I did, but it's a sure bet that I am not the only one who has used copy and paste to paste multiple objects in the same drawing file instead of using the library palette." 

Nadsab, Do you have to copy and paste? Can you explain why and what is your intention for copy from one drawing and paste into a new drawing.
Honestly, I rarely ever do .So I tried and .....
 :)I have found a bug  in V19 and V20 platinum with copy and paste . see attached picture. I pasted into a new drawing a circle, line and point.  The circle was originally drawn at its center 0,0. When I pasted into a new drawing  the circle’s center was at  X- 9-7/8” and  Y- 3-3/8”. So I selected everything  and put the reference point  at the circle’s center then while everything was still selected I placed the reference point at 0,0. This way all objects will maintain their original coordinates and relation to each other form the original drawing. See the attached picture the circle is selected  and the inspector bar is showing  its center at 0,0 but the selection info palette is displaying an error in the x,y center coordinates. No matter what I try I can’t get the selection info to display the correct x,y, coordinates of the circle.
I don’t copy and paste that often.  I use blocks and symbols  from the library and the “extract from” command.
The “extract from” command functions without errors. All objects and their originally drawn coordinates come into a new file as expected.
Does deluxe have “extract from” ?

I find that a pasted object lands at the center of my screen. If I pan 'way to the right before pasting, for example, the object's PosX turns out tol be a large positive number.

Henry H

re: I find that a pasted object lands at the center of my screen.

"Screen Center" is the way TC has worked for a number of years. I believe around V7 or V8, a selection was pasted to the 0,0 coordinates. That lasted for maybe one version, if that, when they went back to pasting to the current screen center location. I find the current method to be very useful, as the pasted selection can be placed wherever I am viewing. I don't have to return to 0,0 and dig out what was pasted from the objects that may be at that location.

re: I find that a pasted object lands at the center of my screen.

"Screen Center" is the way TC has worked for a number of years. I believe around V7 or V8, a selection was pasted to the 0,0 coordinates. That lasted for maybe one version, if that, when they went back to pasting to the current screen center location. I find the current method to be very useful, as the pasted selection can be placed wherever I am viewing. I don't have to return to 0,0 and dig out what was pasted from the objects that may be at that location.

If objects coordinates are not a priority then I do agree.
> So the “rule” is
 > copying and pasting objects between drawings the pasted objects do not maintain their coordinates from the drawing they were copied from.

Quote from: John R on May 16, 2013, 08:10:12 PM

re: I find that a pasted object lands at the center of my screen.

"Screen Center" is the way TC has worked for a number of years. I believe around V7 or V8, a selection was pasted to the 0,0 coordinates. That lasted for maybe one version, if that, when they went back to pasting to the current screen center location. I find the current method to be very useful, as the pasted selection can be placed wherever I am viewing. I don't have to return to 0,0 and dig out what was pasted from the objects that may be at that location.

If objects coordinates are not a priority then I do agree.
> So the “rule” is
 > copying and pasting objects between drawings the pasted objects do not maintain their coordinates from the drawing they were copied from.

Correct.

Henry H

re: …copying and pasting objects between drawings, the pasted objects do not maintain their coordinates from the drawing they were copied from.

Their Reference Points will land on the current workplane. Objects such as a Box or Cylinder will be created atop of a workplane, but will paste wherever the reference point is; usually in the middle (COE). Thus, they're halfway below the WP.