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Fuzzy rendering
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March 06, 2015, 03:01:48 PM
I am getting different results when I render in Lightworks in V21 and RedSDK in V2015 and I am not happy with the fuzziness that I see in the V2015 render.

I'm not using the Advanced rendering with Depth of Field or anything like that.  I load the same file into both programs, make the required change to select a RedSDK material (from Polished Brass to Brass + RedSDK) and render away.

This is what I get.

Why is that?


Jeff


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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


March 19, 2015, 03:45:00 AM
#1
Jeff
Could you post a drawing?

Trying to figure it out I am wondering if the White background or your lighting (if you have any setup?) is causing the effect... Which render style?

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


March 19, 2015, 10:07:19 AM
#2
Jeff,

I think more than likely, it's just that the materials and luminances aren't exactly the same.

It is true that LightWorks is a more advanced engine when it comes to raytracing, lighting and general aesthetics.

The RedSDK performs faster, provides a good framework for using more advanced tools like the dynamic cut plane, has a different (preferred by many) hidden line mode etc.

For getting really nice, pretty renders LightWorks is better suited. (big part of why we still offer it as a plug-in) RedSDk is more of a high performance engine. Users who push the limits of either will begin to notice the differences.

That said, I don't know a great deal about lighting and rendering. Maybe some of the other guys on the forum can help a bit more with ways to improve your RedSDK render quality.

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March 19, 2015, 10:52:49 AM
#3
Could you post a drawing?

Here are two.  I eagerly anticipate an explanation of what's going on.  I did have to change materials in the 2015 version because Polished Brass didn't have a RedSDK version.


Jeff




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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


March 19, 2015, 11:13:02 AM
#4
Jeff
The material did not come with the drawing. Did you use a "+ RedSDK" metal and tweak it or a default material using the color, reflection, transmission settings etc?

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


March 19, 2015, 11:32:35 AM
#5
I did tweak a RedSDK material (Brass) to make it "Dark Brass".  I used the "Outer color" slider to make the change.

Surprised the material didn't come with the model.  How can I ensure that in the future?


Jeff


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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


March 19, 2015, 11:38:42 AM
#6
Epack Jeff

These metal shaders are redSDK ones are classed as "Custom" and do not get saved as a "text form" as per the Default Materials do.

I am creating the metal from the Default Shader so it will be interesting if when I post it back it is within the drawing file.

With metals we have to have their colours quite dark hence why you are not getting the results you get in Lightworks.

I will epack is as well it to you as I also have created an environment map as it gives something for reflections and interest.  :)

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


March 19, 2015, 11:44:08 AM
#7
There are a whole lot of hits for 'epack' on Yahoo search.  None of them seem related to archiving files (except, you know, files that have already been epacked).

Where do I get it (and the instructions for how to use it)?


Jeff


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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


March 19, 2015, 11:48:23 AM
#8
Jeff

It's within TC....see attached  :)

Very nice modelling here by the way Jeff.... :)

details in help here - https://turbocaddoc.atlassian.net/wiki/display/TC2015UG/ePack
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 11:52:50 AM by Darrel Durose »

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* March 19, 2015, 12:10:51 PM
#9
Try this..not sure what i did...simply opened and re-saved the original v21 drawing. At that point the LW polished brass was set.

Then opened and it worked in 2015 no problem.  Perhaps its because I had the replace materials messages disabled?? but really don't know.

Just to be clear.  I think e-pack is only required where a unique image is used by the user to create a custom material.
For instance wrapped images....

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March 19, 2015, 01:31:21 PM
#10
Very nice modelling here by the way Jeff.... :)

Thank you.  My girlfriend doesn't agree, which is why I didn't proceed with this particular earring design.   :-\


Jeff


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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


March 19, 2015, 01:42:24 PM
#11
Jeff

Is this more the look you want for a polished brass material?

With RedSDK for Photorealistic we should avoid using the Standard Light sets as these are more for draft renders In RedSDK.

Girlfriends eh..... all that work  :o
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 01:44:42 PM by Darrel Durose »

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


March 19, 2015, 01:51:52 PM
#12
Darrel,

Yes, that is much closer to what I want.  Where can I find a tutorial on setting lights for use with RedSDK?


Jeff


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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


March 19, 2015, 02:14:15 PM
#13
Jeff


This is the benefits of RedSDK as I have no lights as such in this just the Environment Map/Global Illumination/Photographic Tone Mapping. Edit - Note: Its a different ball game when it comes to interior spaces.

This render below I upped the Anti-Aliasing to 16x not as I have stated in the image file name (64x Min Auto Sampling which is 32x)
I added 15% Burn to the Photographic Tone mapping also.

ePack zip attached - Let me know if it works.... sometimes the Render Styles are missing and it should be set to "Product Visualization" in the "Quality" redSDK category.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 02:32:25 PM by Darrel Durose »

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


* March 19, 2015, 02:46:17 PM
#14
Thanks Darrel.  I was a little thrown off trying to answer Darrel questions about transferring materials and then opening Jeff's original drawing to test that noticed that there were redsdk missing materials...

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March 19, 2015, 02:57:32 PM
#15
Okay... I see that you turned off the 'standard' lights (which is better suited for LightWorks), but I'm not seeing where you specified the other lighting that the RedSDK renderer is using.  The only place I've found to specify RedSDK lighting is in those lights that you've turned off.


Jeff



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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


March 19, 2015, 03:09:52 PM
#16
Jeff

Their are no lights as such.

The Render Scene Environment has an Environment Map for aiding RedSDK with something to use for reflection and Global Illumination. RedSDK uses a background for light.
The Photographic Tone Mapping pushes the light into Monitor limits as does a real camera.

RedSDK benefit is combining these options so that you do not have to mess around with lighting to much. Interiors do need additional lighting as not much of the background gets to all the corners etc.... It doesn't need much in these interior spaces as the Tone Mapping can do the hard work bringing the light levels up into the visible spectrum. As you can see below:  :)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 03:15:32 PM by Darrel Durose »

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


March 19, 2015, 04:30:06 PM
#17
Still not following the path you are laying out (guess I'm going to need more step-by-step detail), but at least the imaging is sharper with what you have provided me.  Thanks for that.


Jeff


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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


March 19, 2015, 04:37:36 PM
#18
Yes Jeff - Looking nice.

Eventually things start falling into place.

Just to be sure you have everything:
1) Render Scene Environment = Product Visualization.

2) Render Scene Luminance = None.

3) Render Style = Advanced Render Style/Quality/Product Visualization.

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


March 19, 2015, 05:30:39 PM
#19
Under Options for the first 2, yes.

I think you meant Global Illumination Fine for Item 3.

Thanks again.


Jeff
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 05:35:10 PM by Jeffin90620 »

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System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


March 20, 2015, 12:48:22 AM
#20
Okay

3) No - I made a Custom Preset (Advanced Render Style/Quality/Product Visualization). I have already reported this in the Beta area as a bug as these are not being saved with our drawings like they should be.

Just make if you want and copy these setting below. It won't be massively different from GI fine that you used really. The burn factor makes it "Glow" a bit more though.

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Daz…

V2019 Plat 64bit, Lenovo P72 Laptop, Window 10 Pro for Workstations, Intel Xeon E-2186 CPU @ 2.90 Ghz (6 cores/12 threads), 32GB RAM, 512GB & 1TB SSD's, Nvidia P5200 c/w Max=Q Design GPU, Display UHD 3840 x 2160 pixels
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.


March 20, 2015, 01:12:00 AM
#21
Fascinating.  Haven't noticed anything about this in the manual.

Thanks for the info.


Jeff



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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1