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another newbie question: copying
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* September 13, 2009, 08:22:32 AM
Hello, I have yet another newbie question I can't seem to solve on my own.  In the sketch attached, which is of a grinder I am restoring (making the sketch mainly for practice with TC), I need to place a copy of the side view of the flange on each end of the shaft.  Seems like I ought to be able to use "Vector Copy" to define the location of the flange at the left end of the shaft; unfortunately I don't know how to establish and define the vectors.  For the opposite end, it would seem some combination of "Mirror Copy" plus "Vector Copy" would be appropriate, but again, the ignorance on establishing and defining vectors and my utter inability to make "mirror copy" work for me prevent this.  This is despite having been through the mirror copy function in Ken Doyle's training CD.  Not his fault, I can't seem to retain it!

Note:  The small (1") line perpendicular to the face of the flange in the side view is only a reference line I was trying to use to align the flange with the center of the shaft.  It will be removed once the flange is in place.



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Eric


* September 13, 2009, 10:06:42 AM
#1
One way (See attached illustrations):

1. Define the center of the shaft by drawing a vertical line across its diameter. Start the line by placing the cursor on the lower side of the shaft and pressing "N" on the keyboard; finish by placing the cursor on the upper side and pressing "J."

2. Draw a horizontal construction line along the axis of the shaft by activating the tool and then placing the cursor on the vertical line drawn in Step One and pressing "M."

3. For ease of handling, select all components of the flange use Format|Create Group.

4. Click on the Reference Point of the new Group; release the mouse button; drag the Group to the desired location on the horizontal construction line; press "N." Note that "N" drops the Group on the construction line at its nearest point to the actual cursor location. If you need a more precise location, please post again, because a slightly different procedure is indicated.

5. The Group can be mirror-copied.

Henry H

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* September 13, 2009, 10:43:20 AM
#2
Ok, Here's my result.  You said to post again if I needed a more precise location; I tried it by zooming in and trying to get the flange exactly where I wanted it.  I seem to have done so, bu tthere must be a better way to locate it exactly.  And with mirror copy I must need to find the center if the shaft by drawing another temporary line and use that to be the mirror line.  Is there a better way to get this flange on the other end of the shaft?  You also showed me how to make a construction line useful; the "n" command is the "nearest on graphic snap", correct?  But nearest what?  And now that the flange is in it's correct spot, how do I select only the temporary reference line I made in the flange in order to erase it?  Now that the graphic group has been created, it will only select the group...  Thanks for the help so far!

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Eric


* September 13, 2009, 11:43:35 AM
#3
...there must be a better way to locate it exactly... 
...how do I select only the temporary reference line I made in the flange in order to erase it?

These two questions are closely related. I'd suggest you select the flange Group and move it aside temporarily so you can work on it without accidentally involving other objects. With the Group moved aside and selected, press Ctrl+G ("Edit Group"), which opens a new window containing only that Group. In that new window, select the extraneous line and press the Delete key. Then press Ctlr+Shift+G to "Finish Edit Group" and return to the drawing.

As it happens, the Reference Point of the flange is already in an ideal spot: the midpoint of the smaller face. Select the flange; click on its Reference Point and release; drag to the intersection of the construction line and the short vertical line you've already drawn at the left end of the shaft; press "I" (nearest Intersection).

And with mirror copy I must need to find the center if the shaft by drawing another temporary line and use that to be the mirror line.

You don't have to actually draw the mirror line. After selecting an object to be mirror copied and actuating the Mirror Copy tool, simply click on two points to define a mirroring line. In this particular drawing, since the grinder is symmetrical about a vertical centerline, you can define those two points by M-snapping on the two horizontal lines which outline the shaft.

... the "n" command is the "nearest on graphic snap", correct?  But nearest what? 

"N" snaps to the closest point that's actually on whatever "graphic" (e.g., a line) you click. It's sorta semi-precise, in that it guarantees you're snapping on the graphic, but the actual location on that graphic is not precise.

Henry H

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* September 13, 2009, 03:57:57 PM
#4
FWIW,

I have attached a method I tried, and it worked okay for me.


don

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* September 13, 2009, 04:23:38 PM
#5
Don, I have tried several times to open your example and get a message that it failed to open, no filter matching that file.  Not sure what this means, I saved it (your file), closed my drawing, thinking that it wouldn't open the same drawing twice, still can't open it.  Could this be because you have V16 and I have V12?  I always forget to post that bit of important info...

Henry, I accomplished placing the flanges by using the "n" command after creating a group, then editing the group to get rid of the temp line.  I then mirror copied using your suggestion of the shaft as midpoint snaps for the "mirror line".  I had to extend the shaft lines on the "mirrored" (right) side of the drawing to meet the flange, which I don't really understand, as I drew them as protruding 1/2" on both sides of the grinder bearings, but I assume the mirror copy feature places them correctly, so I extended the lines to meet the flange. 

I also copied the flange again so I could put one back next to the flange detail as a side view.  Then placed two construction lines tangent to the "front view" of the flange in order to locate the side view as a projection.  Two issues with that:
    1.) I selected snap mode "tangent to an arc or curve" expecting to place the cursor on the top "edge" of the circle (90 deg) and snap to it.  Instead, I got a point marked by an "x" seemingly in the middle of nowhere on the drawing and THAT is where the tangent line snapped to.  Deactivate snap modes and the "x" goes away.  I ended up placing the line by eye using the cursor and it appears to have landed where I wanted it.  I am certain there is some sort of snap I could use to do this "properly".  Should I have used "quadrant snap"?  Would that have let me snap the construction line to the "top" of the circle?
    2.) When I moved the copied side view of the flange over next to the front view I placed it essentially the same way I placed the construction lines in the first place; that is, by eye.  Again, it appears I got lucky, but there must be a correct way to accurately do this that uses "snap points" on the construction lines.  Right??

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Eric


* September 13, 2009, 05:18:22 PM
#6
If anyone is interested in seeing the "real thing", here is a photo of the grinder in its "before" condition.  I hope to use this drawing to learn how to use as many functions of TC as possible, and as such, I'd like to eventually create a "rendering" of the grinder in its finished state (at the rate I am going, the actual grinder will be finished long before the drawing will be).  Not really sure if this is relevant or not, but thought someone may be interested.  I guess the real test of skill will be to see how much the rendering (when I get that far along) actually looks like the grinder.

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Eric


* September 13, 2009, 06:27:09 PM
#7

    1.) I selected snap mode "tangent to an arc or curve" expecting to place the cursor on the top "edge" of the circle (90 deg) and snap to it.  Instead, I got a point marked by an "x" seemingly in the middle of nowhere on the drawing and THAT is where the tangent line snapped to.  Deactivate snap modes and the "x" goes away.  I ended up placing the line by eye using the cursor and it appears to have landed where I wanted it.  I am certain there is some sort of snap I could use to do this "properly".  Should I have used "quadrant snap"?  Would that have let me snap the construction line to the "top" of the circle?
 

Yup. Quadrant snap works nicely. Keyboard shortcut is "Q"; place the cursor on or very near the top, bottom, or either side of the circle and press Q.

    2.) When I moved the copied side view of the flange over next to the front view I placed it essentially the same way I placed the construction lines in the first place; that is, by eye.  Again, it appears I got lucky, but there must be a correct way to accurately do this that uses "snap points" on the construction lines.  Right??

Right. First, move the Reference Point (RP) of the flange side view to top edge, thus: Select  the Group; press "D" on the keyboard; zoom in and place the cursor on or very near the middle of the short horizontal line that forms the top edge; press "M." Second, with the Group selected, click on its RP and release the mouse button; drag the Group a short distance away from the upper construction line (to assure that the next step will be unambiguous); move it back to the construction line; press "N."

Henry H

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* September 13, 2009, 06:31:37 PM
#8
I found a few errors in this drawing.  I discovered that while it is supposed to be symmetrical, it was not.  I corrected this issue by using the "create group" function you showed me, Henry, and mirror copy.  Essentially, I fixed one side of the drawing (both sides had mistakes in different places) and used a vertical construction line I added as the mirror line.  This worked rather well. 

I suppose now that my copying question has been answered, if I'm to continue with this I should start a new thread.  Perhaps what I should do is not clog the forum with it, just post questions as they come up.  Please excuse my ignorance on proper etiquette here; I don't want to use up the valuable time of you helpful folks, but at the same time thought you might like to see the progress your help has enabled me to make.  Please let me know how I ought to proceed, and fear not, I will not be one bit offended if no one wants to see this.

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Eric


* September 13, 2009, 06:35:53 PM
#9
AHA!  Thank you, Henry! 

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Eric


* September 13, 2009, 06:49:51 PM
#10
I found a few errors in this drawing.  I discovered that while it is supposed to be symmetrical, it was not.  I corrected this issue by using the "create group" function you showed me, Henry, and mirror copy.  Essentially, I fixed one side of the drawing (both sides had mistakes in different places) and used a vertical construction line I added as the mirror line.  This worked rather well. 


Good idea.

...I don't want to use up the valuable time of you helpful folks...

Speaking for myself only, my time can be regarded as either worthless (since I'm retired) or priceless (since I'm old). In any case, I try to spend it as I choose ;-)

Henry H

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* September 13, 2009, 06:52:23 PM
#11
If anyone is interested in seeing the "real thing", here is a photo of the grinder in its "before" condition. 

What a wonderful old tool. Do you know just how old it is?

Henry H

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* September 13, 2009, 06:55:37 PM
#12
Don, I have tried several times to open your example and get a message that it failed to open, no filter matching that file.  Not sure what this means, I saved it (your file), closed my drawing, thinking that it wouldn't open the same drawing twice, still can't open it.  Could this be because you have V16 and I have V12?  I always forget to post that bit of important info...


I'll try again with a new attachment. With Henry's help I was able to save it back to v12.

I hope it will be of some help.

don

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* September 14, 2009, 06:36:43 AM
#13
Don, Thank you.  I was able to open it that time.  I will try your method out also.  Obviously, I am new to CAD generally, not just TC. 

Henry, I don't know the vintage for sure.  I belong to a machists' forum also, and I asked there, but no one really knew for sure.  It was originally equipped with a cast iron flat belt pulley and leather flat belt and was most likely driven by a "mobile power unit", or hit-or-miss engine.  My guess is latee 1800's or eqrly 1900's.  I bought it at an auction at a pig farm where it had been for who-knows-how long!  When I complete the restoration it will probably have the flat-belt pulley on it again with a modern serpentine-style belt driving it, assuming I can find one short enough.  Below is a link to the thread on bearing replacement for this grinder, if you're interested:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php/correct-lube-babbit-bearings-182843.html

This has been a very interesting project, and fun, though it has turned into something of a monster!

The pulley will be difficult to draw accurately, I think, because it has a crown.  I guess the hard part isn't going to be actually drawing the crown, but figuring the radius of it in order to draw it

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Eric


* September 14, 2009, 09:15:45 AM
#14
Below is a link to the thread on bearing replacement for this grinder, if you're interested:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php/correct-lube-babbit-bearings-182843.html

That's a fascinating discussion. Thanks for posting the link.

Henry H

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* September 14, 2009, 12:14:24 PM
#15
Glad you enjoyed it.  It's a fun project, even if it has morphed into more of a project than I had anticipated.  Most folks I know ask me why I don't just go to Sears and spend $65 and get a grinder.  How much character would a grinder from Sears have?  And 100 years from now, no one will be restoring any 2009 vintage Sears grinders. 

Anyhow, I have made some progress on my drawing and have some more questions.  None of them relate to copying at this point.  Shall I begin a new thread?  I believe I was advised to do so last time I had a question that developed into more questions.  In any case, I will post the drawing as it now exists so you can see it here, and begin a new thread for my other questions with a more appropriate subject line.  I'll try to detail how I did what I did and see if there are suggestions on how to improve my methods in addition to seeking answers to my questions.

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Eric