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Help Using Pressure Load...
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February 11, 2010, 10:40:27 AM
Gentleman:

I have been assigned to designing a door for a sprinkler timer box. I want to bow the top for aesthetic and strength purposes, but am having trouble on deciding how to do it or even what to do.

The attached drawing shows the basic door, and I tried using the pressure load feature in tcad. The problem is I don't want it bowing the middle (1 point) only, but rather along the x axis, and not the y. I have never really used this tool, but it seems powerful, but tricky to use.

Any help?


Aram

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* February 11, 2010, 10:49:58 AM
#1
Please attach the drawing, Aram.

I strongly advise against using Pressure Load. It is nearly impossible to control the result.

Henry H

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February 11, 2010, 11:00:21 AM
#2
oops Sorry...Geez Looeez..

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* February 11, 2010, 03:20:47 PM
#3
Consider extruding two profiles, Boolean-intersecting the extrusions, filleting where necessary, and shelling. In the attached screenshot and drawing, the profiles are open, and the extrusions were therefore sheet objects with zero thickness -- so I applied Format|Create Solid|From Surface to each before using the Intersect tool.

Henry H

[attachment deleted by admin]

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February 12, 2010, 09:19:11 AM
#4
Thanks Henry:

I appreciate the effort, but kind of went over my head a little, so I will have to study what you did a few times. The work you did is close, but this pic attached is what I am really looking for. Please notice the profile on one side is not quite like the other. I don't care about the ribs, and other details, just the main "lines" and general shape..

let me see if I can duplicate what you are doing, and if you don't mind, perhaps you can post detailed steps in what you propose.

Thanks Bud.. Always there when I need ya.

Aram


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* February 12, 2010, 10:22:42 AM
#5
...this pic attached is what I am really looking for. Please notice the profile on one side is not quite like the other. I don't care about the ribs, and other details, just the main "lines" and general shape..


Try adding an extrusion (largest part of the object) to a box (the flange) and then filleting the edges. I'll have to leave you with that hint for a while, 'cuz I've got some errands to run now ;-)

Henry H

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February 12, 2010, 03:34:34 PM
#6
Hmm... This is the best I could do.. Then i got stuck...


Aram


 :o

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February 12, 2010, 05:54:41 PM
#7
You overthought it.  Look at the sequence of events in the attached V15.2 file.  Start with a simpler outline and proceed from there.

Jeff


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* February 12, 2010, 06:26:47 PM
#8
You overthought it.  Look at the sequence of events in the attached V15.2 file.  Start with a simpler outline and proceed from there.

Jeff


That shape doesn't seem to jibe with the photo that Aram posted.

Henry H

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* February 12, 2010, 07:41:23 PM
#9
Hmm... This is the best I could do.. Then i got stuck...


Aram


 :o

Here's my latest stab at it, Aram. I extruded a Spline profile of the domed portion; converted the resulting sheet object to a Solid; filleted the edges; shelled, omitting the flat face. Made a 3D Box for the flange; filleted the four vertical edges; shelled, omitting the two flat faces. Added the two objects; filleted the joint; chamfered the upper flat face of the flange to give it a slight slope; filleted the outer edge. For the groove on the bottom, I Swept a Polyline profile along a Polyline path and subtracted from the main object. Protrusions on the top are individual extrusions, emplaced manually on one quadrant of the main object and then mirror-copied; added to the main object and the edges filleted.

Henry H

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« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 07:47:19 PM by Henry Hubich »

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February 12, 2010, 09:49:24 PM
#10
That shape doesn't seem to jibe with the photo that Aram posted.

True, but the basic technique gets him close, then he can add stuff to it.

The objects he posted didn't get him anywhere close.

Jeff

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* February 15, 2010, 03:58:20 AM
#11
The objects he posted didn't get him anywhere close.Jeff
It depends sometimes.Starting point always helps but it good to start from scratch works also.

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* February 15, 2010, 04:07:46 AM
#12
Here's my latest stab at it, Aram. I extruded a Spline profile of the domed portion; converted the resulting sheet object to a Solid; filleted the edges; shelled, omitting the flat face. Made a 3D Box for the flange; filleted the four vertical edges; shelled, omitting the two flat faces. Added the two objects; filleted the joint; chamfered the upper flat face of the flange to give it a slight slope; filleted the outer edge. For the groove on the bottom, I Swept a Polyline profile along a Polyline path and subtracted from the main object. Protrusions on the top are individual extrusions, emplaced manually on one quadrant of the main object and then mirror-copied; added to the main object and the edges filleted.
Henry H
Decals and some hinges and its all set.Excellent tutorial
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 04:09:41 AM by wd »

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February 15, 2010, 09:33:34 AM
#13
Thank you gentlemen:

I am still having difficulty understanding your technique Henry, so I will try to address them:

Here's my latest stab at it, Aram. I extruded a Spline profile of the domed portion; Which portion Henry- the X or Y profile?  I am guessing the X or shorter side.converted the resulting sheet object to a Solid; filleted the edges; shelled, Aha! Filleting has been my problem from start. I can't seem to fillet a solid object with curves- only when straight lines are involved. omitting the flat face. Made a 3D Box for the flange; filleted the four vertical edges; shelled, omitting the two flat faces. Added the two objects; filleted the joint; chamfered the upper flat face of the flange to give it a slight slope; filleted the outer edge. For the groove on the bottom, I Swept a Polyline profile along a Polyline path and subtracted from the main object. The swept polyline- need more info on how that was done.Protrusions on the top are individual extrusions, emplaced manually on one quadrant of the main object and then mirror-copied; added to the main object and the edges filleted. Hmm.. okay.. most of this I think I got, but need some help here..

I also tried doing a loft from two different profiles, which sort of seemed to work, but the overall curve wasn't quite right for the top half of the door.. Henry can you post pictorial details on how you did this?

Also see the attached and tell me if it possible to bevel the sides. Tcad seems to want to do, it, but it doesn't fly after selecting all the edit points.

Aram

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* February 15, 2010, 09:41:47 AM
#14
Thank you gentlemen:

I am still having difficulty understanding your technique Henry, so I will try to address them:

Here's my latest stab at it, Aram. I extruded a Spline profile of the domed portion; Which portion Henry- the X or Y profile?  I am guessing the X or shorter side.converted the resulting sheet object to a Solid; filleted the edges; shelled, Aha! Filleting has been my problem from start. I can't seem to fillet a solid object with curves- only when straight lines are involved. omitting the flat face. Made a 3D Box for the flange; filleted the four vertical edges; shelled, omitting the two flat faces. Added the two objects; filleted the joint; chamfered the upper flat face of the flange to give it a slight slope; filleted the outer edge. For the groove on the bottom, I Swept a Polyline profile along a Polyline path and subtracted from the main object. The swept polyline- need more info on how that was done.Protrusions on the top are individual extrusions, emplaced manually on one quadrant of the main object and then mirror-copied; added to the main object and the edges filleted. Hmm.. okay.. most of this I think I got, but need some help here..

I also tried doing a loft from two different profiles, which sort of seemed to work, but the overall curve wasn't quite right for the top half of the door.. Henry can you post pictorial details on how you did this?


Aram

All the profiles and paths are included in the drawing I posted, Aram, mostly on hidden layers.

Henry H

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February 15, 2010, 09:50:19 AM
#15
Okay... I'll need either a few hours or few days to figure this out.

Thanks

Aram

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* February 15, 2010, 10:10:59 AM
#16

Also see the attached and tell me if it possible to bevel the sides. Tcad seems to want to do, it, but it doesn't fly after selecting all the edit points.


In general, it is not possible to create a fillet or chamfer/bevel that is larger than the smallest facet on the edge you're trying to modify. Because your loft was made from Polyline profiles with a large number of vertices, the resulting solid has numerous small facets. It is possible to chamfer the sides, but only if a very small value is used -- too small to be useful.

The cure is to make new profiles. I tried Format|Convert to Curve on your profiles, and that worked, but the shape didn't look quite right. I suggest you redraw the profiles as Splines, using as few specified points as possible and with "The number of segments between adjacent control points" set to 5 rather than the default 20. You'll get a nice smooth loft whose edges can be filleted or chamfered to a reasonable dimension.

Henry H

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February 15, 2010, 10:31:09 AM
#17

Also see the attached and tell me if it possible to bevel the sides. Tcad seems to want to do, it, but it doesn't fly after selecting all the edit points.


In general, it is not possible to create a fillet or chamfer/bevel that is larger than the smallest facet on the edge you're trying to modify. Because your loft was made from Polyline profiles with a large number of vertices, the resulting solid has numerous small facets. It is possible to chamfer the sides, but only if a very small value is used -- too small to be useful.

The cure is to make new profiles. I tried Format|Convert to Curve on your profiles, and that worked, but the shape didn't look quite right. I suggest you redraw the profiles as Splines, using as few specified points as possible and with "The number of segments between adjacent control points" set to 5 rather than the default 20. You'll get a nice smooth loft whose edges can be filleted or chamfered to a reasonable dimension.

Henry H
This would be a good entry for "Tips and Tricks" Henry.

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February 15, 2010, 03:02:20 PM
#18
Hmm.. Well Henry:

It seems like convert to curves was what I needed to do. It looks fine to me, so I am not sure why use the splines tool. I set the points to 2 inches, and it looks pretty good. Not 100% sure, but I think you solved my problem. See attached..

Aram


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* February 15, 2010, 03:06:03 PM
#19
Hmm.. Well Henry:

It seems like convert to curves was what I needed to do. It looks fine to me, so I am not sure why use the splines tool. I set the points to 2 inches, and it looks pretty good. Not 100% sure, but I think you solved my problem. See attached..

Aram


Looks good to me, too, Aram.

Henry H

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February 15, 2010, 03:16:09 PM
#20
Humbly bowing to you from here. Thank you so much and all the others that threw in their two cents. Guess I can continue working now. Kinda forgot where I was at.

Aram

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February 15, 2010, 04:04:37 PM
#21
Okay... Next issue regarding this subject... You mention earlier about too many points keeping you from beveling... Here is an example... How come I can not bevel this to a 1 inch radius?

Aram


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* February 15, 2010, 04:39:12 PM
#22
Okay... Next issue regarding this subject... You mention earlier about too many points keeping you from beveling... Here is an example... How come I can not bevel this to a 1 inch radius?

Aram


Don't know, Aram. Sometimes one can modify the object, round the edges, then un-modify it. This approach worked with your example. I sliced it in half, sliced one of the pieces, used Facet Editor to increase its height. Then I was able to fillet the edge. Sliced off the increased height, mirror copied the object, mirror copied both parts, added them back together. Obviously this will work (if it works at all) only with symmetrical objects.

Henry H

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February 16, 2010, 11:08:03 AM
#23
Hmm.. Well that's tragic.. Obviously there is a bug in the SW. I could only get it to bevel up to .55" radius. I also thought about rescaling, then beveling, then reducing the size to see if that works, as a work around, but then I noticed tcad will not allow me to rescale the Z axis on this object, so i threw the towel in. Perhaps a setting or another limitation.

Aram :)

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February 16, 2010, 12:28:42 PM
#24
This is a bit of a workaround, but you could create a Box and Fillet it to your preferred curvature, then position it so that it covers most of your existing object except the area you are prevented from Filleting.  Once properly positioned, perform a 3D Intersect.

You may have to 3D Add other objects to the new Box to properly cover your object, but you should be able to figure that out.

Jeff

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February 16, 2010, 04:01:46 PM
#25
This is a bit of a workaround, but you could create a Box and Fillet it to your preferred curvature, then position it so that it covers most of your existing object except the area you are prevented from Filleting.  Once properly positioned, perform a 3D Intersect.

You may have to 3D Add other objects to the new Box to properly cover your object, but you should be able to figure that out.

Jeff


Yea Jeff I keep thinking about doing it that way, but I end up going in circles (no pun intended). First draw a rectangular cube 11 x 9 x 1.75, then fillet it at a 1" radius. No real way to curve the whole thing now. Second option, Draw a flat profile with 1" fillets (same size), then some how bend the profile, and extrude the whole thing followed by shelling. I haven't figured out how do do that yet, but perhaps Henry's work around is the only way. I have been fighting this for 5 days now.

I am wondering if I contacted IMSI's tech support, they may have a fix for the filleting issue. I came to a total stop in progress because of that.

Another thought.. Is there a "3D bending tool"?? For instance, I draw a brick, and then bend it a little. That kind of a tool could help me nail this.

Thanks for the input Jeff.



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February 16, 2010, 04:54:34 PM
#26
Try this method

1. Draw a rectangle, 11" x 1.75", box to use as your boundaries
2. Right Click & Select Local Snap > Middle Point
3. Now select Vertical Construction & Snap to the middle point of your rectangle
4. Now select Parallel Construction & click the bottom line of the rectangle.
5. TAB to the Inspection Bar & input 1.25 & hit hit ENTER key
6. Now select your rectangle & Explode it. Now you have 4 individual lines
7. Turn on your Snaps & activate Snap to Vertex & Snap to Intersection
8. Select the Arc tool > Arc Start / End / Included
9. Start the arc at the Intersection of the Left boundary line & the horizontal construction line
10. Snap the end of the arc to the opposite intersecting line & horizontal construction
11. Snap the arc up to the intersection of the top boundary line & the vertical construction
12. Select the top boundary line & delete it
13. Select the left line, now click the top vertice & snap it to the arc vertice & do the same for the right boundary line
14. Select the Join Polyline tool & select each individual entity until they have all been highlighted & click the flag to finish the operation
15. Now you have an enclosed polyline to either extrude or add a thickness to, so double click the polyline to enter the properties dialogue
16. Enter 9 in the thickness field
17. Now select the 3d solid model you just created & rotate it by entering 90 in the RotX field
18. Now select the 3d Fillet Edges tool & enter .75 in the Start Radi field
19. Now click on each corner & top edge until all of those points are red & the bottom points are still blue & click the flag to finish the operation

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« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 07:27:14 PM by kmartin »

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* February 16, 2010, 07:03:29 PM
#27

I am wondering if I contacted IMSI's tech support, they may have a fix for the filleting issue.

Believe me, Aram, they do not.

Another thought.. Is there a "3D bending tool"?? For instance, I draw a brick, and then bend it a little.

Yes, there is such a tool, and that's a very interesting idea. The ends will be slanted after bending, but you could pre-slope them in the opposite direction before bending.

Henry H

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* February 17, 2010, 05:42:20 AM
#28
Hmm.. Well that's tragic.. Obviously there is a bug in the SW. I could only get it to bevel up to .55" radius. I also thought about rescaling, then beveling, then reducing the size to see if that works, as a work around, but then I noticed tcad will not allow me to rescale the Z axis on this object, so i threw the towel in. Perhaps a setting or another limitation.

Aram :)


Not TC's bug, ACIS's condition.  Same filleting rules and conditions apply to Alibre and PunchCAD too, insofar as the same piece gives the same result in all three.  Filleting tries to maintain tangency from face into blend into adjacent faces.  If that condition can't be met, which often isn't immediately obvious visually, failure.  Depending on the particular job, you can sometimes get away with it by blending between two faces only at a time, sequentially around your job.  The order in which they're done makes a difference.
Henry's suggested tweaking a little draft into your piece before bending.  That can also change the radius of fillet that it's possible to achieve, because the different tangency points alter the setback, the position of the blend relative to the face.

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February 17, 2010, 01:19:24 PM
#29
In my response above, I was able to fillet all of the edges at .75 radius. Evidently the "radius bug" does not effect all models. I built the same part in v15.2, v16, following the same exact steps as I described.

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* February 17, 2010, 02:25:52 PM
#30
In my response above, I was able to fillet all of the edges at .75 radius. Evidently the "radius bug" does not effect all models. I built the same part in v15.2, v16, following the same exact steps as I described.

Looks as if your basic procedure is the way to go, Ken: Extrude a profile consisting of three lines and one arc; fillet; shell. Done. Max permissible fillet radius is whatever makes the short vertical sides just about disappear.

Henry H

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February 18, 2010, 09:24:00 AM
#31
Was out yesterday Gentleman:

So just so I understand, there is a limitation on the mathematics that I don't seem to fully comprehend vs. a software bug, is that correct??

However no poster's fully understand what that limitation is? I suppose someone made a decision as to how tangent something can be melded together.

Okay... Let me mess around with some of the ideas posted here.. there is quite a lot to think about here, and it will take me a bit to absorb this.


Aram ???

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February 18, 2010, 10:57:17 AM
#32
I may have used the words "radius bug" earlier, but as stated by someone else, this may very well be a limitation within the ASICS solid modeling engine. Well good luck Aram. I really think you can build this model with the steps I described earlier.

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February 18, 2010, 11:03:55 AM
#33
Try this method

1. Draw a rectangle, 11" x 1.75", box to use as your boundaries
2. Right Click & Select Local Snap > Middle Point
3. Now select Vertical Construction & Snap to the middle point of your rectangle
4. Now select Parallel Construction & click the bottom line of the rectangle.
5. TAB to the Inspection Bar & input 1.25 & hit hit ENTER key
6. Now select your rectangle & Explode it. Now you have 4 individual lines
7. Turn on your Snaps & activate Snap to Vertex & Snap to Intersection
8. Select the Arc tool > Arc Start / End / Included
9. Start the arc at the Intersection of the Left boundary line & the horizontal construction line
10. Snap the end of the arc to the opposite intersecting line & horizontal construction
11. Snap the arc up to the intersection of the top boundary line & the vertical construction
12. Select the top boundary line & delete it
13. Select the left line, now click the top vertice & snap it to the arc vertice & do the same for the right boundary line
14. Select the Join Polyline tool & select each individual entity until they have all been highlighted & click the flag to finish the operation
15. Now you have an enclosed polyline to either extrude or add a thickness to, so double click the polyline to enter the properties dialogue
16. Enter 9 in the thickness field
17. Now select the 3d solid model you just created & rotate it by entering 90 in the RotX field
18. Now select the 3d Fillet Edges tool & enter .75 in the Start Radi field
19. Now click on each corner & top edge until all of those points are red & the bottom points are still blue & click the flag to finish the operation

Bravo Sir:

I seem to have done everything up to line 15. For some reason I could not properly extrude the 2d object, unless I backed up and toggled the 2d/3d tool in the join polyline options. Not sure why.. I made sure all segments were on the workplane, and it would appear that extrusion was correct until pressing the finish flag.

I was also able to bevel at 1" which is good news.

What i don't understand is why my own 2d profile extrusion (Short side) could not be beveled. I suppose this will remain a mystery...

Thank you so much..

Aram
;D

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« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 11:37:50 AM by Aram »

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February 18, 2010, 11:18:08 AM
#34
Try this method

1. Draw a rectangle, 11" x 1.75", box to use as your boundaries
2. Right Click & Select Local Snap > Middle Point
3. Now select Vertical Construction & Snap to the middle point of your rectangle
4. Now select Parallel Construction & click the bottom line of the rectangle.
5. TAB to the Inspection Bar & input 1.25 & hit hit ENTER key
6. Now select your rectangle & Explode it. Now you have 4 individual lines
7. Turn on your Snaps & activate Snap to Vertex & Snap to Intersection
8. Select the Arc tool > Arc Start / End / Included
9. Start the arc at the Intersection of the Left boundary line & the horizontal construction line
10. Snap the end of the arc to the opposite intersecting line & horizontal construction
11. Snap the arc up to the intersection of the top boundary line & the vertical construction
12. Select the top boundary line & delete it
13. Select the left line, now click the top vertice & snap it to the arc vertice & do the same for the right boundary line
14. Select the Join Polyline tool & select each individual entity until they have all been highlighted & click the flag to finish the operation
15. Now you have an enclosed polyline to either extrude or add a thickness to, so double click the polyline to enter the properties dialogue
16. Enter 9 in the thickness field
17. Now select the 3d solid model you just created & rotate it by entering 90 in the RotX field
18. Now select the 3d Fillet Edges tool & enter .75 in the Start Radi field
19. Now click on each corner & top edge until all of those points are red & the bottom points are still blue & click the flag to finish the operation

Bravo Sir:

I seem to have done everything up to line 15. For some reason I could not properly extrude the 2d object, unless I backed up and toggled the 2d/3d tool in the join polyline options. Not sure why.. I made sure all segments were on the workplane, and it would appear that extrusion was correct until pressing the finish flag.

I was also able to bevel at 1" which is good news.

What i don't understand is why my own 2d profile extrusion (Short side) could not be beveled. I suppose this will remain a mystery...

Thank you so much..

Aram
;D

Well, to begin with I always have my settings @ "2D/3D Depending On Selected Object & Space Mode" With that out of the way, I was able to recreate this & with the beveled top side & all 4 corners with a 1 inch radius here at work. I am on v15.2 here. Can you post your file so I can have a look see?

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February 18, 2010, 11:39:12 AM
#35
Here is the latest.... Some problems...It looks a little funny. I think there are not enough points...

Aram


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« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 01:34:57 PM by Aram »

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February 18, 2010, 02:02:53 PM
#36
Yes I see what is happening... When the profile is ready to be joined it looks nice and smooth, but after doing a join, the curve gets squared off in four sections for some reason. Perhaps a setting...???  Then the defect follows through into the extruding process.

Aram :-\

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* February 18, 2010, 04:08:30 PM
#37
Use compound profile and select each of the segments instead of joining the polyline to extrude.

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February 19, 2010, 05:47:36 AM
#38
Use compound profile and select each of the segments instead of joining the polyline to extrude.

That works quite well Murray. I did not think to use the compound profile feature. Saved a few clicks. I came up with the same result. I am able to achieve exactly what it seems  Aram is looking for. I was able to use up to a 1.48 fillet radius on the model.

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February 19, 2010, 09:25:03 AM
#39
Hmm.. There must be something I am missing... I went ahead and skipped the join, and did a compound profile, but once again only the symetrical portion of the profile gets extruded... Arrrgg!! What's going on here???

See attached...


[attachment deleted by admin]

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February 19, 2010, 09:30:57 AM
#40
Thinking this through... I think I am literally having a problem selecting the curve to extrude.. I don't seem to have a snap that will grab the curve... Any advice.. I don't know why this is so difficult... I guess because I am in the home stretch.

Aram


-EDIT--

Hmm.. No that can't be it, because the whole profile appears to stretch when extruding, but when pressing the flag, the curve stays....

--EDIT AGAIN--

I think there may be another profile or line segments under my original profile, but I don't know how to separate or select individually the two if there is...

And edit yet again---

It appears that the curve is not extrudable. Why or how it became that way-- not sure..


 :-\
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 09:48:33 AM by Aram »

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February 19, 2010, 10:04:21 AM
#41
Aram, I was able to get your file downloaded & I opened it up. All you have to do is change your ACIS Faceter Mode settings from Draft to Quality & everything will be perfect

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* February 19, 2010, 10:15:11 AM
#42
Hmm.. There must be something I am missing... I went ahead and skipped the join, and did a compound profile, but once again only the symetrical portion of the profile gets extruded... Arrrgg!! What's going on here???

See attached...


You have encountered a rather subtle but infuriating quirk in the program, Aram. Your extrusion is actually correct, but in order to see it as it really IS, you must go to Options|ACIS and choose "Quality" Faceter Mode.

Henry H

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February 19, 2010, 10:31:21 AM
#43
Ohhh for the love of God..

Okay some relief... But now when beveling... one of the corners is giving me trouble... I think the devil has got into my PC today... Perhaps I'll raise the profile from 1.75 high to 2.5 then slice...

Also, I notice now that is extruding, the smoothness went away.. Is there a way to fix that?

Perhaps I'll start singing...VOLGA BOATMAN......  VOLGA BOATMAN.. Yea that's catchy for this project...

Thanks Hen.

Aram

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February 19, 2010, 10:42:39 AM
#44
Okay... It looks like my set backs were set at 1".. I set them to zero when beveling and it looks good. Now the only prob is the smoothing, but I am beginning to think I should live with it. Getting happier..

Aram

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February 19, 2010, 10:54:40 AM
#45
Okay... It looks like my set backs were set at 1".. I set them to zero when beveling and it looks good. Now the only prob is the smoothing, but I am beginning to think I should live with it. Getting happier..

Aram


I was able to actually use a 1.46 fillet radius succesfully. Can you repost a new copy of the file. Also it is an illusion as far as the smoothness is concerned. When you render thi in quality render mode you will see a perfectly smooth radius.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 10:58:58 AM by kmartin »

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February 19, 2010, 11:15:34 AM
#46
Yes... I think you are right.. I guess it looks fine...See attached...and see what you think..

Aram

Problem Solved??


[attachment deleted by admin]

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* February 19, 2010, 05:26:35 PM
#47
Hmm.. There must be something I am missing... I went ahead and skipped the join, and did a compound profile, but once again only the symmetrical portion of the profile gets extruded... Arrrgg!! What's going on here???
See attached...

Options / ACIS — changing Faceter Mode to Quality may help.

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