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Windows Style
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* June 28, 2018, 12:27:26 AM
Hi,
I want to create a window style similar to  the attached picture. The style will have two panes of unequal size and the panes will be separated by a horizontal muntin with a cross-section of my choice. The position of the muntin is "x" units from the window sill. Having created the style I want to be able to use the Architectural > window tool to position it in a wall as can be done with other styles. Needless to say I have tried to do this un-successfully with tools I can find.

Thanking you all in advance for any help provided.

I am using TurboCAD Pro Platinum 2018 with Windows 10 Pro 64-bit and have been teaching myself how to use TC on and off for a number of years. This is my first post.
Can you help me please?

Rod

Added the post on user behalf as he is having issues while posting.

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Shaheryar Rafiq
SQA Engineer
IMSI Design


* June 28, 2018, 03:19:09 AM
#1
Hi Shaheryar/  Rod

First, there are no picture :)
But i believe the issue is what i have put out in the wish and sug section some year's now, we dont always want a muntin to be based on the "E" of the window, we sometimes want it more in direction of a corner, closer to bottom/ top etc etc.

So if i undestand it correct Rod will need to make and use a Muntin Block(s) and connect that to a windowstyle.

Torfinn

Edit:
Added a simple example pic. of uneven muntins in TC made with blocks
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 05:16:53 AM by Torfinn »

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* June 28, 2018, 08:06:35 AM
#2
I see that Autocad architecture is now a part of autocad - Probably to encourage more architectural users to rather switch to Revit.
   Hopefully Turbocad will stop trying to make the architectural tools like autocad architecture now - or any other autodesk product. 
I have never liked turbocad windows
If you really want to use a window style .With a window that isn't standard you are meant to define a profile style and use that to define openings. The profiles arent parametric so you need to this for each window with a different shape.
This is not practical if you dont use that type of window.

Another approach, which doesnt use window styles, but gives you  the freedom to have any shaped window, is to draw a window and create a block from the window. You can either drag this block from the block palette directly onto the wall or you can use it with the opening tool. The problem with this sysem is it is not parametric either.


And lets not forget ppms. -Which are script created symbols ,this is a little daunting at first, but windows arent too complicated and the ppm language is so basic because there are only 4 or 5 things you can do.
 I recently converted all my window symbols to ppms so that I can have  any shape or style that I need. Which is totally going against the autocad architecture grain but other BIM programs have much more complicated methods to create building components.
And they are completely parametric.




 

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Nikki
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* June 28, 2018, 11:16:57 AM
#3
I can only say one. The work with architectural features is really fun at Turbocad. Unfortunately, this is ironic

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June 28, 2018, 01:24:40 PM
#4
I did notice the other day Spinar Software have made a plugin/addon for TC for windows and doors... looks and sounds good too..

Has anyone used it?

https://www.spinar.cz/produkt/daex_v18_generator_okna_dvere/index.php
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 01:50:13 PM by Darrel Durose »

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Daz...
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* June 28, 2018, 02:13:20 PM
#5
Thanks Darrel

That looks great, have to check it out, but it seems to only use standard TC windows/ doors with profiles and material set pluss cutting bill

Torfinn

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* June 29, 2018, 11:08:47 PM
#6
Hi,
I want to create a window style similar to  the attached picture..................
Added the post on user behalf as he is having issues while posting.

Picture has been attached with this post.

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Shaheryar Rafiq
SQA Engineer
IMSI Design


* June 29, 2018, 11:46:24 PM
#7

The quickest and easiest way is to draw the whole window set up turn it into a block and drag onto the wall from the block palette.
But if you really want to use the window styles  you can use blocks within the style.
 
I would draw it as 3 separate windows

draw a 3d cube with a height the width of the thickness of the mullion and a depth the depth of the mullion - length doesn't matter.
Move to 0,0 and turn it into a block.
In the style palette create a new window style - use a picture window design. click on block. add block and select your new block
 for the sizes make sure scale to fit - width is checked
in the table
use a" center, 0 "  for the X and the Y insertion point and a "top, with a negetive distance" for the Z

For component use "frame " and "inside". OK
You should have a mullion on the window. For dimensions I set the sash width and depth to 0 as there seem to be no opening sashes on this window.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 12:05:33 AM by nikkipollard »

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Nikki
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* June 30, 2018, 03:49:49 AM
#8

Thank you all for the reply's . I will work my way through them and see if I can do what I want.
The picture of the window with the off-centre muntins cross fits the bill. It would be nice to be able to drag the muntin up or down or across in the preview window!
Regards Rod

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* June 30, 2018, 07:43:35 AM
#9
The block/style method is the closest you will get to that. Change the position of the transom by altering the z value.
Its clunky I know

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Nikki
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* July 01, 2018, 03:22:33 PM
#10
Picture has been attached with this post.

My two bits using the "Uneven Single Hung" type, with a 42" "Leaf". I show it opened or closed. It looks close to what is shown in the picture.

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John R.

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* July 01, 2018, 06:20:37 PM
#11
HI John, my method is the same as yours.On another subject, do you know of a way to create a double slide sash glider window using window types in the style manager. Currently I am using a picture window and adding muntins to give the appearance of a double slide window, as shown below. I realise that I can create a block or create a profile style, but both don't work all that well.
Thanks Bob

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Robert Burgess. Using Platinum 21 - Windows 7
Australia


* July 02, 2018, 12:01:48 AM
#12
PPMs are very simple and useful for windows you use often
Here is a simple double sliding window
Edit in notepad to change default units and parameters. Save to a library file and drag directly onto the wall from there.

I save to a block if I plan on using more then one in a drawing.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 01:58:47 AM by nikkipollard »

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Nikki
TC20 platinum
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* July 02, 2018, 09:47:11 AM
#13
HI John, my method is the same as yours.On another subject, do you know of a way to create a double slide sash glider window using window types in the style manager. Currently I am using a picture window and adding muntins to give the appearance of a double slide window, as shown below. I realise that I can create a block or create a profile style, but both don't work all that well.
Thanks Bob

I tinkered with a triple-sash glider window years ago (which sounds similar to your query) and ended up using the "Opening" tool with 2D & 3D Blocks. I'm sure Nikki or Torfinn could make a PPM of this where you could change sizes in the Library or Selection Info palettes. Much simpler than editing a Block(s).

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John R.

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* July 02, 2018, 11:17:32 AM
#14

Thank you all for the reply's . I will work my way through them and see if I can do what I want.
The picture of the window with the off-centre muntins cross fits the bill. It would be nice to be able to drag the muntin up or down or across in the preview window!
Regards Rod

I would see if the "Custom Block" tool works for you.

See attached video

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* July 02, 2018, 03:36:12 PM
#15
Thanks John & Nikki for your replies.
Nikki, know little about PPS even though I have been using TC for many years. Maybe time to learn. I assume that you load the script using PPS editor and also to edit the script. I will give it a go. Thanks

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Robert Burgess. Using Platinum 21 - Windows 7
Australia


* July 02, 2018, 06:45:51 PM
#16
Since Nikki already made a tripple sash window ( win22 ) ppm i just change some bit on that one, added option for opening Left, Rigth and both sides.
Set materials on Frame and Sash, and options for Frame Inset

Torfinn

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* July 02, 2018, 10:18:21 PM
#17
A PPM is just a parametric library symbol. They are easier to use then window styles, because you just drag them in from the library directly into the drawing and change the sizes or parameters in the selection info palette.

You only need to use the editor when you write the ppm. I would open it up the first time I used it and change the default parameters to your preferences.

for example
W = Parameter("width", 2000, LINEAR);

With the above parameter the 2000 is the default parameter size , "width" is the name you will see in the selection info palette.
I work with metric units  - if you aren't working with metric units you will need to change the units.

Unfortunately unlike styles you cant change a parameter of one symbol in your drawing expecting all the other symbols to change too.
When I need more then one window in a drawing, which is identical to another window, I use the symbol in a block. edit the block to change the parameters of the symbol.

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Nikki
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* July 03, 2018, 06:00:10 PM
#18
Thanks for the window PPM examples Nikk & Torfinn, For some reason when saved in the symbols folder and then dragged into the drawing from the library palette  the windows won't attach(cut) to the wall like window styles . Am I doing some thing wrong.
Thanks Bob

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Robert Burgess. Using Platinum 21 - Windows 7
Australia


* July 03, 2018, 06:22:24 PM
#19
You have to drag it directly on/ to the wall, just like a Block, later you can adjust placement if needed.
If you have many similar, drag one out and make a Block and then the opening Tool, the red line is the modifier

Torfinn

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* July 03, 2018, 07:12:29 PM
#20
Yes, that is exactly what I am doing, dragging the the window from the library directly onto the wall, but it won't cut into the wall for some reason.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 08:15:55 PM by Bob Burgess »

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Robert Burgess. Using Platinum 21 - Windows 7
Australia


* July 03, 2018, 10:30:14 PM
#21
Are you on the same workplane as the wall?

When this happens I Move it onto the wall and hold the control key down when I position it. Delete the first copy.

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Nikki
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* July 04, 2018, 03:27:26 AM
#22
It will not show in plan view that it cut the wall, for that you will need to make a mask i 2D as well.
Have you checked in perspektive and render if it make a hole or not ??

Torfinn

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* July 04, 2018, 05:29:44 AM
#23
The mask Torfinn is referring to is a rectangle with a solid white hatch which effectively hides the wall when viewed in plan.
You do need to have "convert foreground colours in accordance with background turned off).

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Nikki
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* July 04, 2018, 04:20:57 PM
#24
Thanks for the update. Yes, the ppm windows cut the wall in perspective view but not in world plan view as you indicated. Making a mask for each window is a bit of a pain particularly if window need to be moved.It would have been easier if TC had a double slide window (glider) as a standard window type. Thanks for all the help.

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Robert Burgess. Using Platinum 21 - Windows 7
Australia


* July 04, 2018, 05:23:10 PM
#25
The mask is written inside the ppm, and by that it will follow the window if we move the ppm window, just like Nikki show in win 23c.ppm

Torfinn

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* July 04, 2018, 10:54:00 PM
#26
I agree Bob. But I don't think that is going to happen.
I have been exploring BIM programs and they all have the same problem. Every country has different standards and trends, It is impossible for an out the box solution to meet everyones needs.
The difference between Turbocad and these other programs is the volume of people who use them. If you were using Archicad or Revit you might be able to get away with not creating your own symbols because someone would have posted what you need on the net.
If you couldn't find what you needed, you would make your own.  Archicad has a scripting language similar to The PPM system whilst Revit uses constraints in families.
Being able to develop your own symbols, which work the way you want them to, makes a program so much more powerful because you have the creative freedom to explore designs and systems that aren't "normal" whilst maintaining the parametric aspect.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 10:57:13 PM by nikkipollard »

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Nikki
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* July 05, 2018, 03:29:46 PM
#27
Point taken Nikki, however, the window types used in Australian house design are all covered by TC's standard window types, including casement, double hung, awning & single slide, but not double slide. Surely a double slide could have need added.
The ppm window you provided (thankyou) with the mask does not appear to cut the wall as you suggested it would. Any clues. Also can the material type be altered in the ppm editor. I realise it can be changed in properties individually but if it could be set in the editor it would save a great deal of time.
Thanks   

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Robert Burgess. Using Platinum 21 - Windows 7
Australia


* July 05, 2018, 04:40:03 PM
#28
The material can't be changed in Properties before/ after inserting if it's not already written an option for it in the ppm itself, with some material to choose from.
You can explode it, but then it's not a ppm anymore and the cut function will not work, and you cant change dimensions etc. that can then be a good candidate for a Block.
And like with Block we can make a 2D Block to use together with the 3D Block, the mask sort of doing the same job as the 2D Block, only that it is "fake"
In a 1 Component standard wall we dont always need the Brush, only the lines, but we do in a multi component wall.

win23c work like a charm, so then you somehow not insert it correct, in Nikkis ppm's she use the middle in x and y as a refpoint, so it should snap to the alignment the wall have

I normally use Baseline when making walls, and by that i try to hit that line when inserting a ppm door or window, and have running snap like Nearest on, only, sometimes i also preset some circles in the middlepoint of window's placement along the Baseline, then i will use Center, else i only use SEKE's when draw something.

Torfinn

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* July 05, 2018, 10:24:20 PM
#29
I am lazy, 
 I don't normally give windows materials because  I don't usually render close enough to see the detail on windows
 I just change the colour of the layer that the window is on.
I have assigned a material to the glass, you add similar code with your required  material for the other components.
If you need a choice of materials then add a list of the choices as a text parameter and  write another line of code telling the program which material to use for each item on the list.

However I wouldn't bother with this window because apart from the glass everything else would  probably be the same material.
Add all the windows you need select them and change the material. Anything that isn't assigned a material in the ppm will be assigned that material type.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 10:32:51 PM by nikkipollard »

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Nikki
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* July 06, 2018, 04:46:05 AM
#30
They will all be the same material, the "grain"/ pattern will go the same way, and that will look "funny" imho.
If there should be used materials they have to be assigned inside the ppm file on each part, when the object is in correct position to get the result/ direction of the material we want to see in the finish product.
Then it's more convinient to just use the layer color

Torfinn

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* July 06, 2018, 05:22:21 AM
#31
I agree

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Nikki
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* July 06, 2018, 03:21:14 PM
#32
Yes the layer colour works fine & a much better idea then changing the ppm code.
Nikki, The ppm window you posted with the the solid white hatch mask when inserted into a wall shows the mask detached from the window as shown below. Can the window & mask be attached.

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Robert Burgess. Using Platinum 21 - Windows 7
Australia


* July 06, 2018, 11:10:04 PM
#33
moved to the bottom of the window

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Nikki
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* July 08, 2018, 11:41:06 PM
#34
Thanks Nikki for the amended window. Maybe you or Torfinn may be able to answer this one. Is it possible to create the attached window using ppm script. The window has fixed glass in the centre and attached louvre windows either end.
Thanks Bob

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Robert Burgess. Using Platinum 21 - Windows 7
Australia


* July 09, 2018, 02:48:51 AM
#35
You can do anything with PPMs.
 I already had a window with a fixed middle pane so I modified that so that you can either have louvres or opening sashes on either side. The win24 is the window the other 2 are macros which are referenced in the file and need to be in the same folder or a folder in the library file called macro.


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Nikki
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* July 10, 2018, 01:51:54 PM
#36
Thanks Nikki, works well. Is it difficult to learn how to write ppm script. Do you know any good reference sources.

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Robert Burgess. Using Platinum 21 - Windows 7
Australia


* July 11, 2018, 05:10:45 AM
#37
Honestly in comparison to other software the scripting is easy because there are only a handful of commands available. I am not a programmer and I cope.
 The thing that confused me in the beginning is that I didn't know the difference between SDK and PPM.
 All the SDK documentation refers to external programs which you don't need for PPMs, when you try to read them you are referring to the wrong information and your brain goes into overload as a non programmer.
You need to find the ppm documentation in the help. PPM is almost the same as drawing with words.
step 1 define parameters
step 2  draw a shape in 2d on the world plane,  rotate it in the x y or z direction, move it , sweep or give it a thickness. Apply Boolean operations and change properties (there are other commands but those are the main ones I use).
and finally a reference point and an "output."
 
I started with a very simple ppm that was supplied with the program. (the bookshelf I think) opened it with the ppm editor changed a few of the standard parameters .Then I tried to make my own ppm by copying and pasting from that script. Torfinn is very helpful and always willing to answer questions as well. With the sliding window I tried to put as many notes (the green stuff) as I could so that it can be modified easily.

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Nikki
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