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Problems with Radius & Diameter Dimensions
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* February 03, 2010, 09:00:04 AM
I have found a problem with using the diameter & radius dimesioning tools in paper space. I first build a model in model space as usual, then create a suitable view. A viewport is inserted into the paper space and then dimensioned. However when I do this I am frequently finding that diameter and radius tools are not picking up the model. I click on the edges where I should be able to get these tools to work but nothing; just a 'boing' to tell me that I have made some sort of error.

This seems to be a particular problem if the object is made of several cylindrical objects joined together, if they have been moved or if they have been pasted in from another model.

If I go back into the model space and remodel the object or draw circles for the key diameters I require then I can go back into paper space and dimension these.

I have tried TurboCAD support but nothing they have suggested has worked.

I am not a new user and have been using TurboCAD for about 6 years. I am pretty sure that I am not doing anything different or stupid.

Application has been removed and reinstalled from scratch using clean build twice now but no change. I am running V16.2, build 54.0.

Anyone else found a similar problem ???

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* February 03, 2010, 09:22:00 AM
#1
Agreed that this is a "problem" - I have seen the same thing. Also, this issue was carried over to DoubleCAD XT.

A simple test is to draw a single circle in model space. While still in model space, from this circle create some additional circles with the copy/paste routine; and also with the mirror command. Form a viewport around all these circles and drop the viewport in paper space. I've found that now the radius and diameter dimensioning tools do not pick up the "copied" circles.

Larry

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February 03, 2010, 10:20:00 AM
#2
Which version? I can do this fine in v15.2 & v16.2.

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* February 03, 2010, 10:20:02 AM
#3
Dimensioning 3D objects can be tricky, and dimensioning them in a Viewport is even trickier. I find that to dimension the diameter of a cylinder in a VP requires that Degenerative Faceting be enabled, and to do it correctly requires that the VP Scale be 1:1 and that the plane of the dimension be parallel to the plane of the view in the Viewport. YMMV.

Henry H

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* February 04, 2010, 02:19:32 AM
#4
Thanks for your replies. Can I just take you through the sequence and perhaps you can show me what I am doing wrong here?

Firstly, version 16.2 Build 54.0.

File - New - From Template - A4 (or A3, A2 etc - doesn't matter)

Model Space - Isometric_SW - ACIS (Degenerative Facetting, Allow Axis Scale, Create Editing History all ON; Set to Quality)

Workspace - Workplane - By World

Options - Space Units (Metric, Type - Absolute, Model Space - 1:1)

Snap Modes - Only 'No Snap' selected

Draw a cylinder 50mm OD by 10mm high. Position the cursor over the upper edge of the cylinder and enter 'c' to snap to the centre. Create a new cylinder 25mm OD by 10mm high. Use the 3D Add tool to join the two cylinders.

Switch to the 'World Plan' view.

View - Create View. Draw the bounding box around the model and then enter a name 'test'

Switch to the paper space.

Insert - Viewport. Drag a bounding box in the left half of the page.

Now use the diameter and radius dimensioning tools to dimension the cylinders. It should work fine.

Go back to the model space and copy and paste your original model anywhere you like. Now repeat the steps above to create a new view (test2) and insert a viewport on the right half of your paper. When I try to use radius and diameter dimension tools on that view it doesn't work.

I have run the same test on two other version of TurboCAD; V15.2 build 48.1 and V12.3 build 55.4. TC 15.2 shows the same problem but TC 12.3 works fine.

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 02:32:29 AM by Exhibitas Design »

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* February 04, 2010, 02:37:02 AM
#5
Thanks for your replies. Can I just take you through the sequence and perhaps you can show me what I am doing wrong here?

Go back to the model space and copy and paste your original model anywhere you like. Now repeat the steps above to create a new view (test2) and insert a viewport on the right half of your paper. When I try to use radius and diameter dimension tools on that view it doesn't work.

I have run the same test on two other version of TurboCAD; V15.2 build 48.1 and V12.3 build 55.4. TC 15.2 shows the same problem but TC 12.3 works fine.

It seems to work okay here.

FWIW. Start from scratch in a new drawing and create your own personalized template.

don

[attachment deleted by admin]

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* February 04, 2010, 03:04:29 AM
#6
Thanks for looking at it. Man this is frustrating! I have opened your modified file and can see your added dimensions but I still cannot dimension the copied model. I had the same problem when I contacted IMSI support. They could not reproduce this problem either.

The only other possibility might be that the file behaves slightly differently when run on an installation other than where it was generated. Have you tried redrawing the model from scratch as I described? If the problem still does not show up then it would suggest that it is specific to my installation whereas if it does appear then that would suggest a very peculiar bug.

Another possibility might be that there is some strange interaction between the older TC versions and TC 16 that is causing this problem.

Any other observations or possibilities would be welcomed!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 03:08:10 AM by Exhibitas Design »

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* February 04, 2010, 08:02:09 AM
#7
I'm using V15 and I've seen similar problems from time to time. Don't know what causes it, but I've found that if I explode the offending part until it is a ACIS part I then can place dimensions - at least for me.

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* February 04, 2010, 01:51:45 PM
#8
Dimensioning 3D objects can be tricky, and dimensioning them in a Viewport is even trickier. I find that to dimension the diameter of a cylinder in a VP requires that Degenerative Faceting be enabled, and to do it correctly requires that the VP Scale be 1:1 and that the plane of the dimension be parallel to the plane of the view in the Viewport. YMMV.

Henry H
I think I can shed a little more light on this now. After some head scratching and a freash reinstallation of TC16.2 build 54.0 I have identified some unusual behaviour with the ACIS editing history.

If I start modelling with editing history turned on this seems to cause problems. As previously described, if the model is moved or a copy is made then these cannot be dimensioned with radius and diameter dimension tools. However if the editing history is turned off before the model is created then there is no problem.

I don't know if anyone else can duplicate this but it is very consistent. As an additional check I installed TC16 temporarily onto my laptop and got exactly the same behaviour. This can't be a corrupted disk because I have also tried a downloaded full build and get the same behaviour.

Either this is a very strange bug or some other piece of software (perhaps antivirus software) is affecting installation in some way. I really hope that someone can duplicate this and prove that I am not nuts!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 01:53:31 PM by Exhibitas Design »

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* February 04, 2010, 03:32:03 PM
#9
re: I really hope that someone can duplicate this and prove that I am not nuts!

Confirm.

I can dimension the original object that contains Part Tree info. A copy of the part (made with "Make Copy") does not work; can't use Diameter or Radius Dimension tools.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2019
Designer, Deluxe, (Professional, Expert, Basic), Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro (1803), 64-bit


* February 04, 2010, 03:50:02 PM
#10
re: I really hope that someone can duplicate this and prove that I am not nuts!

Confirm.

I can dimension the original object that contains Part Tree info. A copy of the part (made with "Make Copy") does not work; can't use Diameter or Radius Dimension tools.

I tried it again. The second radius was deleted. Usinf Make Copy to create the second radius, it dimensions okay with the radius and diameter tools.

don

[attachment deleted by admin]

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DonCW

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* February 04, 2010, 04:38:53 PM
#11
Don, your drawing didn't work for me. The attached also doesn't work for me.

[attachment deleted by admin]

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2019
Designer, Deluxe, (Professional, Expert, Basic), Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro (1803), 64-bit


* February 04, 2010, 05:24:51 PM
#12
Don, your drawing didn't work for me. The attached also doesn't work for me.

John,

Your drawing works okay here. I added another copy to try... and that dimensions too.
I don't know why.


don


[attachment deleted by admin]

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* February 05, 2010, 12:53:59 AM
#13
re: I really hope that someone can duplicate this and prove that I am not nuts!

Confirm.

I can dimension the original object that contains Part Tree info. A copy of the part (made with "Make Copy") does not work; can't use Diameter or Radius Dimension tools.

Morning John

Frankly I am rather relieved that someone else has seen the same behaviour. I was beginning to think I had slipped a mental cog somewhere.

Clearly there is some common element here. The two machines that I am running the test on are quite different. The only obvious common elements are that both TC16 installations were done with the same downloaded full build, both are running Norton Internet Security 2010, both have XP Pro and both have Nvidia graphics cards; the laptop has an Nvidia Quadro FX Go1400 and the workstation has an Nvidia Quadro FX 1700.

I don't think that it is the TC16 version because I have had the same problem with an installation of TC15 and with other versions of TC16, both disc and download based.

Do any of the items I have indicated ring any kind of bells?

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* February 05, 2010, 02:03:38 AM
#14
re: Clearly there is some common element here. The two machines that I am running the test on are quite different. The only obvious common elements are that both TC16 installations were done with the same downloaded full build, both are running Norton Internet Security 2010, both have XP Pro and both have Nvidia graphics cards; the laptop has an Nvidia Quadro FX Go1400 and the workstation has an Nvidia Quadro FX 1700.

I finally got over to the XP box and V16 Radius & Diameter works on that one.

Doesn't Work
Vista 64 OS
Nvidia Quadro FX
Norton AV version 16

Does Work
XP Pro SP3 (32 bit)
Nvidia GeForce FX
Norton AV version 16

I tried various Compatibility settings in Vista, including "Run as Administrator"; nothing made a difference.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2019
Designer, Deluxe, (Professional, Expert, Basic), Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro (1803), 64-bit


* February 05, 2010, 03:09:11 AM
#15
Hi John

I don't think that this is an OS problem or more people would have reported it. The only common thing I can see is an Nvidia Quadro series graphics card on the affected machine. I am pretty sure that Nvidia GeForce series uses a different chipset.

Are you running any antivirus or firewall software? Specifically NIS2010 or any other Norton or Symantec software on the affected machine that is not on the other one?

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* February 05, 2010, 06:00:14 AM
#16
I have Norton Internet Security on both. It doesn't specify 2010 or 2009, but Help/About says Version 16.xxx for both.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2019
Designer, Deluxe, (Professional, Expert, Basic), Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro (1803), 64-bit


* February 05, 2010, 06:08:39 AM
#17
I think version 16.xxx will be NIS2009.

If you have the same version running on both machines then it is less likely that this is the problem. Having said that, I have had circumstances where software runs fine if installed before NIS but not if installed after NIS. I don't suppose you recall whether there was any difference in the order of installation of TC16 versus NIS on the two machines?

I think what is really needed here is for more people to try this out to see if a pattern can be established. I have contacted IMSI but the support engineer in question cannot so far reproduce the problem so there needs to be more people who find it before they are going to consider the possibility of an obscure bug.

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* February 05, 2010, 06:50:36 AM
#18
I can confirm also.... can't get Dia. dim to work.

Using XP Pro SP3
GeForce video card
Not using anything by Norton.

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* February 05, 2010, 07:34:13 AM
#19
re: I don't suppose you recall whether there was any difference in the order of installation of TC16 versus NIS on the two machines?

NIS was the first thing installed on both computers and never shut down. It runs during installs of TurboCAD.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2019
Designer, Deluxe, (Professional, Expert, Basic), Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro (1803), 64-bit


* February 05, 2010, 08:27:04 AM
#20
Here is my results using cicrle, mirror, stamp, copy, then paper Dim.
      Win vista SP2
      Mobile Intel(R) Driver
      Norton 360 2009

Ver 16.2 Build 57.9 Failed
Ver 15.2 Build 48.1 Failed
Ver 14.2 Build 57.9 Passed

2nd.  Win Xp SP3
      NVIDA Geforce FX 5600
      Norton 360 2009

Ver 16.1 Build 47.5 Passed
Ver 15.2 Build 48.1 Failed
Ver 14.2 Build 57.9 Passed

Al

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* February 05, 2010, 04:26:38 PM
#21
Using the file supplied by Exhibitas Design...TC16-2_54-0 test.tcw: with TurboCad v16.2.54

Machines:

Tower: Win XP Pro SP3, nVidia, NIS 2010
Laptop: Win XP Pro SP3, ATI, NIS 2010

Results:

In the PaperSpace window, both the Dia and Rad dimension tools fail to pick up the "copied" circles.

As I noted in an earlier post, this is also endemic to Doublecad XT !!!

Could this be fixed with a patch before v17? And while I'm on the subject, how about making the sheet metal bend tools "fully" functional. I could use this repair.

Thanks.

Larry



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* February 05, 2010, 05:40:29 PM
#22
And while I'm on the subject, how about making the sheet metal bend tools "fully" functional. I could use this repair.


In what way are the bend tools not functional?

Henry H

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* February 05, 2010, 09:12:04 PM
#23

[/quote]

In what way are the bend tools not functional?

Henry H
[/quote]

When using the bend tools, it seems that the only one that works as I'd expect is the "Start" implementation. It's not clear to me how the "Center" and "End" selections usefully work. As a point, I believe that you're the one who pointed this out to me some time back...  :-)

Larry

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* February 06, 2010, 09:53:40 AM
#24


In what way are the bend tools not functional?

Henry H
[/quote]

When using the bend tools, it seems that the only one that works as I'd expect is the "Start" implementation. It's not clear to me how the "Center" and "End" selections usefully work. As a point, I believe that you're the one who pointed this out to me some time back...  :-)

Larry
[/quote]

It is certainly not clear from reading the Help file how "Center" and "End" work, because what Help sez is wrong on that topic. Maybe the attached illustration will actually be helpful.  I've made the bend line on each part visible.

Henry H

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 09:58:23 AM by Henry Hubich »

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* February 06, 2010, 04:07:00 PM
#25
Thanks Henry.

Perhaps (as usual) I'm being a bit dense...

Your illustration is what I would expect from the "Start", "Center", "End" commands. However, that's not what I believe
I see when I use these tools.

Attached is a file where I've done something similar to your effort. The three parts on the left have the bend line on the outside surface, while the parts on the right have the bend line is on the inside surface. Notice the relationship of the bend line to the part. With the exception of the "Start" version, the other two methods do not seem to match your jpg file.

For this reason (and your earlier well put advice), I only use the "Start" command.

Any clarification appreciated...

Larry



[attachment deleted by admin]

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* February 06, 2010, 05:16:51 PM
#26
Thanks Henry.

Perhaps (as usual) I'm being a bit dense...

Your illustration is what I would expect from the "Start", "Center", "End" commands. However, that's not what I believe
I see when I use these tools.

Attached is a file where I've done something similar to your effort. The three parts on the left have the bend line on the outside surface, while the parts on the right have the bend line is on the inside surface. Notice the relationship of the bend line to the part. With the exception of the "Start" version, the other two methods do not seem to match your jpg file.

For this reason (and your earlier well put advice), I only use the "Start" command.

Any clarification appreciated...

Larry



I'm having a density problem of my own, Larry, 'cuz I don't understand the problem. The parts on the left in your drawing are identical to their counterparts on the right.

...Anyway, I always use "Start," too ;-)

Henry H

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* February 07, 2010, 12:59:03 AM
#27
In regard to the radius and diameter dimension issue, I really fail to see any pattern here in regard to version or hardware, at least superficially anyway.

I have just completed additional testing and it is definitely not antivirus software or firewall causing the problem. I disabled all the security software, downloaded a new copy of TC16.2 build 54.0, installed it and ran the test with the same result.

Of those of you who have replied, who has installed all versions and upgrades only from disk and who has used downloads? Are all those who had successful tests certain that ACIS editing history was turned ON right from the commencement of their drawing?

ACIS editing history is the only common factor I can find. If it is turned on when a model is started then the problem occurs as described. If turned off then everything works fine.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 10:05:41 AM by Exhibitas Design »

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