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Render with redSDK or Lightworks
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* March 07, 2018, 03:28:47 AM
Need to learn more about lighting so Ive put together a house and room view for anyone that wants to try it out. Ive used both red and lw but sometimes I got bogged down in the detail, just occasionally I fluke it and get some renders close to looking good. So this time Im gunna pass it to the experts for their input and try and learn as much as I can about their process. Please be warned Im gunna ask a bucket load of questions about the reasons of what, when, where and why etc. I always leaned more towards LW but I gotta admit some of the redSDK renders are absolutely superb and thanks to those that post them.

What Im hoping to achieve is that we can compare the two render engines that TurboCAD uses and hopefully for me to learn along the way. So no materials attached to any object and just fill ya boots as to what you want to do with it. So this file is based on the  redSDK image.png file is not mine ( I wish ) , I got this redSDK tutorial from  www.redway3d.com/downloads/public/documentation/bk_photorealisticimages.html

Just wish LW had something similar!

So just to be clear redway3d.com I presume owns the copyright to the redSDK image.png and its not mine! 


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* March 07, 2018, 08:31:45 PM
#1
So Ive gone back to the basics and here is my starting point for learning more about rendering with lightworks. The draft image is only included as a reference and comparison to the quality raytracefull image. Whats noticeable up front is that Ive used only two lights, normally most of my work is with engineering parts and assemblies and this is my 1st real attempt at a house/internal structure and Im just trying to get as close to the redSDK.png from my 1st post image as possible.

I dont have any good materials for the floor other than what came with turbocad so if anyone can suggest something that gets closer to the redSDK image then please post it here. The stairs are my 1st attempt and they too need some work and materials as well.

In the REDsdk tutorial ( sure thats redSDK stuff and Im using Lightworks, well theres no equivalent lightworks tutorial ) from the previous post it talks about removing all non physical lights cos the image is flat, so I did that in these renders and Ive learnt a bunch already.  Setting up the geometries and just how important it is, like I said I come from a mechanical background and all my previous mech drawings have had no added geometries other that the key part or assembly and that most of my models just appear to hang in space so take another look at the quality image and its only got two lights and Im sure as I get better at rendering I will be able to fine tune these renders in appearance. Well thats the goal anyway.

Do I now add furniture ect to give it a more realistic appearance?
Setup for rendering?
Work on the physical geometry of light fixtures that I included in the design?
Design and setup geometries for other objects?

So where to from here?

Fwiw my goal is here too learn just howto get great lighting results from both render engines and produce quality photorealistic images like what the experienced forum posters do get.   
(my next post I will do the same as above with redSDK rendering only)

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* March 07, 2018, 08:34:49 PM
#2
The file RoomNoFurnitureLW,tcw has changed slightly, so check the zip file for the latest changes!
Moved the windows a little closer together thats all.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 10:42:42 PM by Darryl W »

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* March 09, 2018, 04:45:48 PM
#3
So heres the same drawing using the redSDK render engine, with some suprises and substantial differences.

1. redSDK materials are substantially different than Lightworks materials, youll see this in the redSDK Oyster White material,png image and the difference in the resulting renders. Gotta learn more from the red experts here with incremental steps. Taking giant leaps in terms of working with other forum posters renders and solutions just muddys the water when ya just starting out.

2. So with redSDK I should expect no suprises at all ( then again what do I know, Im just starting out ), with the redSDK Draft No Light.png image I get the white background where Ive used a glass material. I thought that Id see nothing that would have been discernable at all with no lights, wondering why or is this just red?

3. redSDK materials and the redSDK Draft 1 x ambient - 1 x headlight.png image, what a change from the no lights image. Gots lots to learn here from just how red works. So the next step is to apply the basic elements from the red tutorial mentioned in the prev post.

4. The redSDK Quality Global Illumination Fine No Lights.png image is somewhat cleaner and clearer than the draft image and of course it should be, but why does it render at all with no lights. I can only assume its the global illumination fine render option.

5. With the redSDK Quality Raytrace Fine 1 x ambient - 1 x headlight.png image, you can definitely see that the lights are way off and too bright. So I did not try that render with no lights, but maybe I should have and Im now wodering if had come up something like the draft image instead!

Inside the TurboCAD 2017 help file theres plenty of redSDK detail on all things ( I checked three material elements only ) about the materials, but knowing what to change and what not to change is always challenging! So in part what do you change and what do you leave is still a mystery to me anyway!

Dont have any good materials for the floor as yet so Ive just gone with checkers again.

So I will now start applying what I can get from the redSDK tutorial ( from my 1st post ) and hopefully learn along the way, any help from either redSDK experts or Lightwork gurus always welcome.

Finally Im now wondering what difference it would make if both render engine companies wrote suitable tutorials for IMSI and what affect would those tutorials have on the take up rate of TurboCAD?

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* March 11, 2018, 12:11:43 AM
#4
Heres the latest on redSDK rendering, what Ive discovered is that using a material that worked fine in Lightworks doesnt work properly in redSDK. To use the LW material in red I just reproduced the same material settings and rebuilt in red, but the result was as per the redSDK Advanced Global Illumination Fine_Tone_HDR.png image. No amount of mucking around produced a reasonable result so I discarded that material and just went with a redSDK wheat material instead, see redSDK Advanced Material-Wheat Global Illumination Fine_Tone_HDR.png image.

So no lights are used in the redSDK Advanced Material-Wheat Global Illumination Fine_Tone_HDR.png render and its the clearest and closest Ive got to the original redSDK image.png. Theres still more to do but it becomes a little tricky as the redSDK tutorial talks about using physical lights v centric lights and that it further mentions that two different types of lights dont coexist well so Im gunna have to do some more testing. Any experienced red guru is welcome to chime in here!

Next I will go back to the Lightworks version and try to get close to the redSDK image.png and use some features that Ive picked up from Don Cheke's tutorials and videos if all goes well!

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March 11, 2018, 10:08:16 AM
#5
This is just what I need mate to help me grasp redSDK. Thank you I cant wait to get stuck into it later tonight.
***EDIT*** its above 2016 version I cant open it in 2016 :(
 
Pjay
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 04:03:54 PM by Pjay »

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March 11, 2018, 03:27:54 PM
#6
Here is my trial with LightWorks. Although the Red render you posted looks nice it was too sterile for me so I did my own thing. I tweaked the view a bit as well, but add the one you had as well.

Darryl, I emailed the epacked file to you.

Last one attached is Photo-shopped a bit.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 03:33:22 PM by Don Cheke »

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* March 11, 2018, 04:58:36 PM
#7
Hey Pjay, heres the file saved back to V21.

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* March 11, 2018, 05:02:31 PM
#8
Thank you Don so much, Im into it right now and I will post what I learn from it into my next post later today.
 ;D

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March 11, 2018, 05:30:49 PM
#9
Thanks Darryl :)

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* March 12, 2018, 04:09:51 PM
#10
So after Don Cheke posted the images in Reply#6 I decided to peel back the onion somewhat (peel back the onion, slang for opening it up to see what makes it tick) that way I could learn more about Dons file that he generously emailed me.

First thing I discovered is that in Dons emailed file he used a background image that is not seen in any of his renders in Reply#6 with the exception of the blue filtered light which can be seen in all 3 of renders. Whats intersting here is that its not a lightworks light that has blue colour, its the sky colour filtering through the window. Just to clarify here the background image is just a scene with a grassy area, scattered trees and a clear sky. So it appears that the background images sky portion blue is lighting is shining throught the windows.

So when I removed the environment from the render I got this result. Note that the blue filtered light shining through the windows is now gone. see RoomNoFurnitureLW 1 x headlight (Enviroment Removed).png

Peeling back the onion some more I decided to remove the Luminance and add the environment back in from Dons render to see what difference that makes. So it makes the render really dark, except the light spheres. I do remember reading somewhere that a sphere uses the lighting and it seems to attract the light then reflect it or bounce the light.   see RoomNoFurnitureLW 1 x headlight (Enviroment In Luminance Removed).png

Finally after testing a bunch of other settings I decided to remove both the enviroment and luminance to experiment further and iI got this result. see RoomNoFurnitureLW 1 x headlight (Enviroment & Luminance Removed).png

After digging further I realised that Don changed some material settings that suited his render, Don changed the materials for the windows and glass. The original window frames were just a matte white and the glass material was just a standard lightworks glass.

Ive include the image Original (se view) v DonCheke (se view).png, so you can see side by side what changes Don made v my original RoomNoFurnitureLW.png ( see Reply#1). Changes made by Don are: windows all the way around, added a swept handrail for the staircase, added a front a side wall (hi-lited blue colour) , enlarged the floor, the ambient light turned off in his render, the headlight colour changed to dim grey and 1 watt power and finally Don added 6 spheres above each wall light. Whats interest here is that the spheres pickup the light from just one headlight and amplify the lighting. see spheres.png

In my next post I will just work with a simple mechanical design and investigate how I can improve the render image using Ray Cube and HDR.

EDIT [ I guess I could have titled this topic All things not to do when rendering! ] end EDIT
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 04:12:42 PM by Darryl W »

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March 12, 2018, 05:20:17 PM
#11
Hi Darryl,

I only thickened the floor to help with creating the named view. Adding the thick floor and switching to front view (while in perspective) brought the eye level to where I wanted it. Then I just orbited and walked a bit to move in. Normally I just add a box to the bottom of the floor, but in this case I just thickened the floor. Thickening the floor does nothing to change the lighting, etc.


March 12, 2018, 05:21:38 PM
#12
As you surmised, the environment image was just chosen because it had a sky, something to show through the windows.


March 12, 2018, 05:25:07 PM
#13
I enclosed the building so light was coming only from within and from without via the directional luminance through the windows. To much light otherwise when all the walls are not in place. Might be alright if the luminance distant light had been coming from the other direction.


* March 13, 2018, 01:14:03 AM
#14
Thank you Don your valuable assistance is always appreciated.

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* March 13, 2018, 01:24:50 AM
#15
So heres a mechanical Hand Truck with some standard renders, whats most important from my perspective is that just dumping an object on screen like the hand truck without some basic background just makes it look if its hanging in the air. Hence placing a ground plane object and adding two sides does give it some perspective.

The zipped Standard Pushed Hand Truck & Cylinder V21.zip file has basic colours in it but no materials as such, thats the next goal to add some realistic images like brick work and proper flooring like concrete and other aspects.

 

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March 13, 2018, 05:37:51 AM
#16
For me, easiest way how to present a alone Objects -> the floor material->Miscellaneous - MatteShadow and as Environment-> Sky with Sky texture3D/Image HDR for reflection + Sky texture2D/Image for Background image (white, grey or other). Ofcourse + Light -> luminance Sky-Physical sky model or HDR

In the Attachment is ePack.
Catch your model and paste in to the drawing and push render button ARS
Note: If TC throws warning message that can not find material "Miscellaneous - MatteShadow" then use yours material from yours TC database for the floor!
The Light direction is possible change through Menu->Option->GeoLocation->Sun position - Edit-> Custom: Azimuth and Angle
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 06:07:31 AM by Majo »

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March 13, 2018, 06:44:48 PM
#17
Here is my "Classical Gas" LightWorks version. I'll email the epack to you Darryl.

Note that you need to uncheck use transparency if you want soft shadows with luminance lights.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 06:47:06 PM by Don Cheke »

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* March 13, 2018, 09:08:04 PM
#18
Majo thanks for your interest here, Im gunna need help with the red stuff just so that I can make it informative. Don thanks for your interest as well, Im still gunna need help with lw specifics a little further down the track. I wont stop with this until Im upto speed on render options and hjopefully getting consistent results. This was always my goal, to get others forum members to show off their expertise that we all could follow and learn from. So thanks to all!

Posting soon...

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* March 13, 2018, 11:34:01 PM
#19
Heres the render from Majos post, all Ive done is add in the spheres so that all forum users can see them. What I havent figured out yet is whats the connection between the spheres and the handtruck?

I do understand that spheres catch the light and appear to amplify it.

Majo has included the same number of spheres as there are material colours, by that I mean that each colur of an object is matched by the corresponding sphere colour, but why and whats the significance of that?
see Standard Pushed Hand Truck_Cylinder V24_RedSDK-Daz.png

Where inside the properties of this render can I find the reference to: simple_gray_background-wallpaper-1920x1080?

When I look really closely at the chrome sphere I can see what appears to be some reflectance of a scene from the paris_saint louis island_512_hdr.PNG. But why?

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March 14, 2018, 12:12:12 AM
#20
What I havent figured out yet is whats the connection between the spheres and the handtruck?

There is no connection Daz. The Spheres are in the drawing only for transferring materials thru ePack file. You can delete them.

Where inside the properties of this render can I find the reference to: simple_gray_background-wallpaper-1920x1080?

Palette Envitonment->Sky-> and here are setup two setting

- Environment Map: Sky texture 3D -> image: paris_saint louis island_512.hdr - this setting is responsible for the reflectance on the objects in the whole scene

- Background: Sky texture 2D -> Wrapped image: simple_gray_background-wallpaper-1920x1080.jpg - this represent 2D background. This same image will be in every views which you will rendered. You can him change for example like Don (in the post above for LW) set image with background with the nature looking.

Note: Physical Sky Model is in this case only as permanent setting "Environment->Sky" shader. But it do nothing! In this case if are using -> Sky texture 3D/Image and Sky texture 2D/Wrapped Image!
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 08:11:26 AM by Majo »

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* March 14, 2018, 03:09:44 PM
#21
...What I havent figured out yet is whats the connection between the spheres and the handtruck?

I do understand that spheres catch the light and appear to amplify it.

So based on Majos reply sphere dont have any effect on the lights within the redSDK render engine, yet within Lightworks they do, so thats interesting because Don used the spheres inside ( see repy#10 ) RoomNoFurnitureLW 1 x headlight (Enviroment Removed).png
and that those spheres are lit like a lightbulb.


What I havent figured out yet is whats the connection between the spheres and the handtruck?

There is no connection Daz. The Spheres are in the drawing only for transferring materials thru ePack file. You can delete them.

Where inside the properties of this render can I find the reference to: simple_gray_background-wallpaper-1920x1080?

Palette Envitonment->Sky-> and here are setup two setting

- Environment Map: Sky texture 3D -> image: paris_saint louis island_512.hdr - this setting is responsible for the reflectance on the objects in the whole scene

- Background: Sky texture 2D -> Wrapped image: simple_gray_background-wallpaper-1920x1080.jpg - this represent 2D background. This same image will be in every views which you will rendered. You can him change for example like Don (in the post above for LW) set image with background with the nature looking.

Note: Physical Sky Model is in this case only as permanent setting "Environment->Sky" shader. But it do nothing! In this case if are using -> Sky texture 3D/Image and Sky texture 2D/Wrapped Image!

I will explore HDR soon in relation to both render engines and what difference it makes to the final render.

Thanks to both Don & Majo for their contributions here and Im learning more about what to do and also what not to do!


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* March 16, 2018, 10:19:38 PM
#22
Spent part of the day on Thursday working with the Render Manager and then added some furniture and fittings to the InProgress-RoomNoFurnitureLW.PNG and as I see it looks much closer to the redSDK.png from my 1st post, sure not all details are included as yet as its a work in progress.

Problem
From the few times Ive rendered the RoomNoFurnitureLW.tcw I noticed that the bookcases in the rear of the picture have a matte white material applied but when rendered they come out black and idea why?

The Orange rectangle is what appears to be a loft area based on the redSDK.png and Ive yet to add other details. The chairs in the right rear of the InProgress-RoomNoFurnitureLW.PNG are from grabcad but all other objects  I created, ( stairs are from Don Cheke). As soon as I solve the flooring issue below I will post this entire tcw file for others to learn from.

 ::)A special thanks to Henry Hubich for his fantastic "A Photorealism In TurboCAD(R).pdf" book, Ive learned so much from that its got me to the point Im at now without having to ask a gazillion questions. Sure Im not done here but this book describes in easy to read style on what all the material parameters mean and just howto get where your going. Thanks H indeed! 8)

Okay the problem Ive got is most likely caused by using the wrong floor image ( 000004215064_c.png, this one came from a lightworks Iray Files I downloaded ) and at first glance appeared to be similar in relation to the floor render from redSDK.png. Whats not right yet is the appearance based on floor1.png when compared to the 000004215064_c.png image.

Problem
So when you look at 000004215064_c.png versus Floor1.png, Floor1.png is much darker and Id like to get it close to the 000004215064_c.png. The exact same lighting is used in the Floor1.tcw file same as the original RoomNoFurnitureLW.tcw that way all I need to do is improve the floor image and then I can move on, can anyone comment here on how to get that material lighter in colour or have I used the wrong wrapped image sample?

Ive epacked all materials into the Floor1.zip

InProgress-RoomNoFurnitureLW.PNG
Wood Wrap Arbitrary Plane.png
( inside the epack file only: 000004215064_c.png )
Floor11x11cm.png ( smaller version of the above epack file only )
Floor1.png
Floor1.zip
Flooring.png

Just a late question would/will hdr lighting fix this?

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* March 17, 2018, 12:36:36 PM
#23
"Im learning more about what to do and also what not to do!"

Darryl, keep up the good work.  :)

> attached are my tests. Scene lighting is created by using a Sky/Sun shader. I'll add those cute lamps later  ;D. These are low resolution screen captures but you get the idea.
With a complex scene like the one you posted you'll get better results using the advanced render styles.
Maybe start separate threads for Lightworks and Redsdk.

I closed the room by adding two exterior walls, though it's not necessary if the walls are not going to be visible in the final render, you'll be able to pull in more light.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 12:49:09 PM by Dean »

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* March 17, 2018, 03:09:49 PM
#24
Hey Dean thanks for your tips, as you know that last post was for lightworks. Once I get the floor solved I will then start the same process on redSDK using the completed model. From the original ( 1st ) post the redSDK image.png floor looked close to the ( 22nd ) posts floor 11x11cm.png image, by that I mean that when eyeballed they looked similar but after rendering thats not so. So my goal is to try and match the look of both floor images and see if I can get it close with lightworks then move onto a final lw render then go back to redSDK and render the same again.

In the original redSDK image.png its not clear to the end user anyway, if they rendered that view with an open front or not ( by open I mean front walls not in the design or removed ). Based on the original posted file RoomNoFurnitureLW.tcw imo I think that this may have been an open design with not front wall, this is based in part from my thursdays work after placing some furniture into the model thats when I realised that is where the camera position is located, thats almost exactly where another vertical concrete pillar would normally have been. So what Im leaning towards is that the red tutorial render is based on an open plan with no front walls. Of course this is just a conclusion only.

I did initially consider a Lightworks & redSDK post with separate threads, from where I sit I thought that it maybe best to combine both only from a comparative point of view as Darrell Durose is doing similar work another thread. And that I have some knowledge with Lightworks but far less redSDK knowledge.

"What do I know. Im just getting started" ;D 

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* March 18, 2018, 02:41:44 AM
#25
On my mobile atm as its raining & thunderstorm again! So Ive got the floor looking okay and thats due to the photorealism.pdf from Henry. You can find it on the forum if you care to search and frankly its a beaut!
Ive added more objects into the drawing based on the tutorials main image, new specs helped me see what Id originally missed.

Did try luminance lighting with spheres and it washed the drawing out ( standard lights off ). So I went back to lightworks std lights and Ive now got to figure out the best lighting method. I will try luminance lighting again with revised parameters and posting when the storms are gone.


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* March 18, 2018, 06:33:35 AM
#26
So heres my latest, the floor is better but not perfect ( Im improving a fast as paint dries! ). The standard lighting was not good enough and I had a go at using luminance lighting but I shooting blind here as its either hit or miss for me atm.

So Im off to study Dons ligthing video next and hope that I can improve the render. Epacked all files and materials.

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* March 19, 2018, 09:25:52 PM
#27
Got a luminance problem that making go around in circles and Im now stuck.

In the both images png file the top image is just a test drawing with luminance and it works ok. Whereas the lower image has essentially the same setup but when rendered it washes the image out completely, why?

Ive added the lumnince properties for both drawings, can any point me in the right direction cos Im stuck between a rock and hard place atm.




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* March 20, 2018, 08:58:05 AM
#28
Got a luminance problem that making go around in circles and Im now stuck.

In the both images png file the top image is just a test drawing with luminance and it works ok. Whereas the lower image has essentially the same setup but when rendered it washes the image out completely, why?

Ive added the lumnince properties for both drawings, can any point me in the right direction cos Im stuck between a rock and hard place atm.

Daz, I'm wondering if the "Default" Lights are being used in the washed-out drawing. If you're asked whether you want to set the default light sources, and you click "No," they are some collection of lights is used anyway -- but they don't become part of the drawing. The workaround is to click "Yes" and then delete them or turn them off in the Lights properties dialog.

Henry H
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 09:12:24 AM by Henry Hubich »

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* March 21, 2018, 12:41:06 AM
#29
Thanks for your ideas Henry, no the default lights are turned off and thats the crazy part of it. So I will post the file in a few hours from now ( slow internet atm ) so that maybe yourself and others can check it out and see whats wrong. Oh I have learned and bunch and then some from your excellent book so thank you! ;D ;D ;D

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* March 21, 2018, 01:09:11 AM
#30
In first pic Color is grey, second Color is white, and also between RedSDK and LW there is a huge difference when it comes to how much ligth it gives if that is the case with the renders.

Torfinn

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* March 21, 2018, 02:28:27 PM
#31
Torfinn yes Ive learned that different light settings can and do affect each other, thats why this problem is acting strangely and its most likely something I got wrong.

Attached epack of the problem drawing, take a look if you can!
 

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March 21, 2018, 03:02:35 PM
#32
To much ambient I think Darryl

The materials have a lot and then you have ambient in the Luminances.

I think using an area lights or point luminances in the interior lighting should be used rather than another distant light...

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* March 21, 2018, 06:15:42 PM
#33
Daz thats exactly what initially thought of but after deleting the standard lights still got the same problem. So I will go back in soon and see if it can be corrected.

Dazzy...

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* March 21, 2018, 06:21:33 PM
#34
Darrel was rigth, there is a lot of ligth from the ambient set at 0,55, the Default is 0,1
And also Henry point out something important, when you say no to Default ligth, TC put in some anyway as it need some ligth for rendering it "think", but you cant control them, so say yes and then you can turn them of, but at least you can Control them.

I extracted your file in to a new from scratch, say yes for ligth, turn them of and changed the ambient to 0,1, result Attached

Torfinn

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* March 21, 2018, 06:45:41 PM
#35
Daz, I copy-and-pasted the entire contents of your drawing into my custom Template, which contains 1 Ambient light (1 watt), 1 Headlight (1 watt), and 1 Directional light (0.6 watts). Here's the result, rendered in LW Raytrace Full...

Henry H

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March 21, 2018, 07:37:51 PM
#36
Had a play with your first/second post of the empty room using TC2017 RedSDK... close to the Redway lighting and tone mapping setup...

« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 07:41:35 PM by Darrel Durose »

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* March 21, 2018, 07:44:27 PM
#37
Henry, Torfinn & Daz thanks for prompt replies. My internet is slower than a dead dog with one leg atm. Stop laughing Murray!
I will inspect them in greater detail as soon as Ive got speed.

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* March 28, 2018, 02:35:48 AM
#38
I did have a few days of really slow internet speed, still dont know why. Got some matters to attend to so I will be back in about 5 days times to pickup where I left off. Daz

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* April 17, 2018, 03:57:29 PM
#39
Apologies to all for not providing updates to this post on a more regular basis, as Ive been dealing with an urgent business regarding my designs that are now under a manufacturing under license and testing/evaluation phase. I will come back to this post as and when the time becomes available and please feel free to add your own ideas to this post for the benefit of all. Darryl W.

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