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Paperspace - Hidden line shows up blocks which should be switched off
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* January 12, 2018, 01:33:57 AM
Hi,

TurboCad 2017 Expert
Windows 10

New TurboCad user here.

I have created a drawing showing a terrace of six houses.
Windows, doors etc are created as blocks and placed on layers relating to their position on the house i.e 'Ground Floor Windows', 'First Floor Windows' etc

I want to produce plans showing isometric views of the building at various levels i.e Ground Floor, First Floor etc.

I switch off the layers I don't want to see in the individual views and all looks fine until I come to print it.

In wireframe all looks as it should, except I don't want to print every single line of the drawing.

Using 'Hidden Line' setting for the isometric view, I get all the blocks showing up, even though their layers are switched off.

Using Redsdk Hidden Line, seems to show the view without the blocks, but is extremely slow to render and only produces very, very faint lines, even with print settings turned to Black only.

I am using PDF Creator to convert to PDF.

Any thoughts on why the basic Hidden Line render setting (which is fast and produces a nice crisp image in PDF) won't hide the blocks even though they're on layers which are switched off, whereas the Redsdk setting does seem to do this but produces an unusable image after many minutes of resource draining work?

Help and advice greatly appreciated

D

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January 12, 2018, 02:24:41 AM
#1
Hi REM,

    welcome to the forum. 
    Some other suggestions may appear, but my first thought is to try in GDI mode, and see if you get the results you require.
    I hope this helps.

Regards Tim

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You can design without engineering, but you cannot engineer without design.
Using Win 10 with Designer 2017 and TurboCAD Pro. Plat. 2016/2017 + Lightworks (64-bit versions).


* January 12, 2018, 02:46:35 AM
#2
Hi Tim,

Thanks for the reply.

Tried your suggestion, but still got the rendered image with showing the blocks which should be invisible.

Also, given that working with this setting would disable the ability to quality render some elements, I would be rather unhappy if this was the only solution to my problem. It does, however, suggest that maybe I should be looking in the program set-up parameters for a solution, so may play around with tweaking some of those settings to see what happens.

Cheers.

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January 12, 2018, 03:14:51 AM
#3
Hi

as I recall, hidden line render with RedSDK has been problematic in the past - producing poor output.
The solution was/is to do this in GDI.
Unless you purchase the LightWorks plug-in, then you may be stuck with swapping from one mode the other.
I know this is not a full answer, but I'm sure someone will 'chip' in, with resolving your Blocks problem.
A simplified drawing, sent as an attachment below, may be of some help.

Regards Tim

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You can design without engineering, but you cannot engineer without design.
Using Win 10 with Designer 2017 and TurboCAD Pro. Plat. 2016/2017 + Lightworks (64-bit versions).


* January 12, 2018, 04:07:27 AM
#4
Ok, so I decided to make a quick new drawing with two objects in it created as blocks on different layers.

In both GDI and Redsdk it rendered the image perfectly with one of the layers switched off.

So, presumably the problem is within my drawing itself.

Am pushed for time on this so may just explode the hell out of it and place everything on relevant layers with no blocks, though the file size is already 13.4mb, so I imagine a dramatic increase to this.

Obviously, I will save the drawing as a new file before doing this, so if anyone does have a solution or idea what part of my drawing is causing this issue, I would still be interested in hearing.

As an aside, another peculiar thing happened:
On my paperspace sheet I have a viewport for the Floor Plan and a viewport for the isometric ( the problematic one)

I notice every now and then that on the floor plan view some internal door frames keep appearing despite their layer being switched off.
When I returned to Model space, those door frames were also visible but I couldn't select them. They were there..... but not there.
I switched off the joinery layer they were created on and they disappeared, then switched that layer back on and they were still invisible.

Most strange..... perhaps therein lies the error.... I may start by exploding them and see what has happened.....

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* January 12, 2018, 04:14:28 AM
#5
RedSDK is normally very quick in Hidden line, much faster than in GDI and LW, so maybe something about the block's ??
Same thing about block's turn up even if the layer is turned off, maybe there is something inside the Block's that are in a different layer, and by that they will turn up if that layer is on.

If this is a P Space problem, is the layer turned off ( unticked) in the viewport ??

Torfinn

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V18, V19, V20, V21, 2015/ 16/ 17 Pro. Platinum
Deluxe V20, V21, 2015/ 16/ 17
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Home Premium 64 bit, 32 GB
NVIDIA Geforce GTX 780m, 1 GB


January 12, 2018, 04:37:12 AM
#6
Another quick thought.

As a new user, you may not be aware, that it's good practice to keep Layer 0 always turned on, in all drawings, Blocks, xrefs, etc.
Having Layer 0 turned off can cause all sorts of weird display problems!

Regards Tim
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 04:41:04 AM by Tim Stewart »

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You can design without engineering, but you cannot engineer without design.
Using Win 10 with Designer 2017 and TurboCAD Pro. Plat. 2016/2017 + Lightworks (64-bit versions).


* January 12, 2018, 06:27:17 AM
#7
And another thing, if the door/ window is "stolen" aka copied out from a wall and then made a Block of, it will not show before render is draft or quality.
Then an option can be to edit the Block in Block edit mode, select door/ window and explode it, then it will show in HL.

Torfinn

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V18, V19, V20, V21, 2015/ 16/ 17 Pro. Platinum
Deluxe V20, V21, 2015/ 16/ 17
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Home Premium 64 bit, 32 GB
NVIDIA Geforce GTX 780m, 1 GB


* January 12, 2018, 07:30:36 AM
#8
OK program just crashed so am taking a break from it!

Comments from Tim and Torfinn are much appreciated.

Indeed I did have the '0' layer switched off in the viewport properties, but switching it back on didn't solve problem. I will bear in mind the need to keep this layer active though.

With regard to Torfinn and walls..... well, for a while there I believed I may have solved the problem, but I didn't, though the issue is still quite interesting:

Being new to TurboCad (previous experience is with AutoCad LT and solely 2D drafting) I was quite taken with the 'Wall' function. However, my version of TC limits me to walls of a single component, which is not what I want if I am to produce a section through a 3d model and show the construction of the wall. Also 'Walls' seem behave a little erratically, especially if they are near another object and sometimes the junctions don't 'heal' completely...... anyway, this being my fourth project using TC I'm still trying to find my style and am moving away from using walls and now prefer simple extrusions.

With this drawing, I started it with walls, but early on decided on a do-over replacing them all with extrusions.....

.... but I forgot to delete the 2d/3d insertions. So I reckon it was these which appeared ghostlike in model space, looking for a wall to attach themselves to. Aha! Thinks I, this is the glitch!

But, after deleting all of the internal door frames from the blocks and trying the hidden line render once more, the other blocks which are on invisible layers and so shouldn't be on my print out are still showing up.

I have also considered some blocks I have downloaded from manufacturers, such as Twyfords Bathrooms and Velux Windows, but deleting these hasn't cured the problem either.

Then I had the bright idea to purge them from the drawing file as well....... and then TurboCad stopped working.

Time for coffee.....

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* January 12, 2018, 08:28:24 AM
#9
And when the coffe break is over :), remember go to where your file is saved and see if there is a dwl file there, before starting TC again.
In case delete it, it will be named "drawingname".TCW.dwl.
This dwl's can also make a lot of "fun" with the drawing later.

Torfinn

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V18, V19, V20, V21, 2015/ 16/ 17 Pro. Platinum
Deluxe V20, V21, 2015/ 16/ 17
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Home Premium 64 bit, 32 GB
NVIDIA Geforce GTX 780m, 1 GB


* January 12, 2018, 11:04:25 PM
#10
I don't like a lot of the architectural tools. But you definitely should persevere with walls - extrusions are too time consuming. Walls shouldn't be giving you a problem.
Remember that walls on different workplanes wont heal properly. The direction and alignment might also cause walls not to heal join properly.
If this problem still isn't solved, post the file here. It is always easier to help identify a problem when you have the problem file.

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Nikki
TC20 platinum
TC 2015 platinum
TC 2017 with lightworks


* January 13, 2018, 06:51:32 AM
#11
Hi,

I think with the limited components of my version of TC, I need to be able to represent a wall which can then be sectioned and shown on 2D drawings with details such as plasterboard and studwork etc, so unless I upgrade to the platinum pro version (which may well happen if TC works out for me) I don't have a problem with the extra effort required for extrusions. The way I see it, if I was doing the same work solely in 2D I would be drawing those walls multiple times in sections and various details, so doing it once in 3D is still probably less time consuming.

I also like to be able to switch off the different floor levels of a structure so my method was to construct walls from foundations up to ground floor level, then ground floor to first floor level, but I got the feeling the walls didn't much like being placed on top of each other. First project I did in TC was a new house and I had issues with windows disappearing out of wall openings and walls failing to heal at corners leading to some very strange rendered images.

I know walls and slabs give you flexibility in changing the position of openings, but I'm finding that strategically placed slices through an extrusion around say a door frame, mean I can easily drag the opening to a new position without too much bother.

It's all a learning curve....or 3D polyline... or something.  8)

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* January 13, 2018, 07:20:21 AM
#12
Think I may have found my workaround!!

Tim mentioned the importance of Layer '0'..... so I go to wondering, what if I put the construction of the blocks on that layer?

Does '0' behave differently to other layers?

Apparently so.

Here's the thing:

Let's say I want to have a window block used on different storeys of a building. I have to draw the window on a layer (or layers) for the various elements that make up the window (Frame, sashes, glass etc), and then turn that into a block and place that on it's Layer relating to the position on the building (Ground floor, first floor etc).

But since all windows are then constructed from lines drawn on layers shared by the blocks, what was happening is I had to keep those layers switched on to show my window blocks on Ground Floor level, and those layers were then being visible on the other levels of the building despite the actual block layers being switched off.

But, it seems I can construct the windows, sanitaryware, doors etc all on Layer '0', make them into blocks and place the blocks on layers I can then switch off individually and it seems to work in Hidden Line.

At least, so far in a little test drawing I just played around with. Still a bit of a pain as I now have to edit every single block on my main drawing and place the elements of it on to the '0' layer, but it should allow me to switch off  those elements..... of course it won't work with a whole building as a block... but it's a step in the right direction.

Still don't understand why the Redskd is so awkward either. I can use that in any colour other than black. In black it comes out so feint I can barely see it even with a white background (I like to work with a black background in model and paperspace)...tried lots of different settings but nothing has improved it. And setting the print setup to black only had no effect on this.

Anyway, hopefully that is my problem sort of solved for now, though will be working all weekend to catch up with time lost!!

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* January 13, 2018, 07:39:32 AM
#13
The elements within a Block being on Layer-0 thing:  Yes, that is the generally accepted and recommended method of handling Blocks.

I even go through the extra effort to locate and orient the Block (the contents of the Block) such that the Reference Point, and the Block's Insertion Reference Point, are at World coordinates X=0,Y=0,Z=0, oriented along the X axis (the Blocks Palette preview would be a "top view" of the window, door, etc.)

I'm with Nikki-- I think you should stick with using Walls.  Draw your other extrusions adjacent to the Walls, if you'd like.
If you do decide not to heed that advice, I suggest you try using Double Lines.  Pre-assign a Thickness (height) to a Double-Line via its Properties/3D page, that correlates with the height desired.
    Using Properties Values Presets, you can have a number of these pre-assigned Double-Lines-- such as "4"x8' Walls", " ½"x8'Drywall ", " 4"x3' Brick Wainscoting",... you get the idea.

I still think you need to stick with using the Wall Tool.  But if you go with Double-Lines, you can use the Meet 2 Lines and T-Meet Double Lines, Intersect Double-Lines modifiers to clean things up in hurry.  (you can also do so with actual TC Walls-- at least in my ancient versions we can)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 07:45:32 AM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


January 14, 2018, 02:57:58 AM
#14
From the help file:

"Objects should be moved to Layer 0 before being used to create a block.
The block itself, when inserted in the drawing, can be reassigned to the proper layer."

So, for artifacts that may need repeating in a drawing, windows, roof tiles, light fittings, etc., create Blocks.
Blocks are saved/retained in the drawing.

If you require "a whole building as a block" then look at using externally referenced drawings (xrefs).
These are essentially Blocks, which allow viewing of selected layers, from the xref drawing, within the main drawing.
The xref drawing is edited separately, like any other drawing, and reloaded into the main drawing after any modifications.
They are a very useful tool which, in my view, are not used nearly enough.

Regards Tim
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 03:05:42 AM by Tim Stewart »

Logged
You can design without engineering, but you cannot engineer without design.
Using Win 10 with Designer 2017 and TurboCAD Pro. Plat. 2016/2017 + Lightworks (64-bit versions).