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Paper, Consistency, Cursor Queries
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* April 07, 2018, 11:32:50 AM
THIS MAY APPEAR TWICE thanks to that wretched Captcha system!

I cannot find answers in the pdf guide:

Paper Format:
I wish often to be able to produce A4 size, portrait layout drawings on a pro-forma print with simple title-block.
Is this possible without over-turning the copied model-space drawing and producing a complete title-block every time?

I made A4 portrait master but TC converted it to the default landscape and blocked my editing the title-block to suit the specific work. (The Text should show in Properties -> General, but does not do so.)
I had had no idea this would happen, so in copying across I had to rotate the image 90º, putting it out--of-scale and spoiling some of the dimensions, and replace the title-block with a completely new one also rotated and slid into position. Why?

Bu "using it", I mean by first copying the blank drawing under the new file-name: my "template" is just a blank drawing with editable text-block in the corner.

The "official" A4 Template in the 'New' menu is opposite to my needs here: metric, landscape and over-occupied by an over-comprehensive, industrial-pattern title-block.

+++=

Consistency:
How do I persuade TC that I want all dimensions and text labels to stay with MY choice of ABC-font and 0.xx" high? I don't want its default and the labour of changing all the labels every time.

++++

Cursor: [/b
The cross-hair symbol has suddenly adopted a mysterious little circle that like a faithful little dog, follows it everywhere, sometimes exploring another part of the screen but usually sticking with it. What is it please? Where has it come from? It does not do anything, but is a bit annoying. Never did like dogs!

I feel learning TC is rather like fighting a Gorgon: you conquer one problem (or use some clumsy work-round.... or give up on it) only for TC to throw two or more new problems at you. "Learning curve"? Aye - a logarithmic one. Very disheartening.

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Nigel.

On TC Deluxe 19: hobby use.


* April 07, 2018, 02:18:05 PM
#1
The last bit of your message should - hopefully - be the easy bit. it sounds like you have accidentally ticked 'show snap aperture',  in options menu - preferences - drawing curser. (or TC thought you'd like to see it).  if it is ticked, untick it.

As for the paper-space bit,  I don't use it enough to be 100% sure, so this is just my thoughts.  any existing drawing will override many of TC's defaults,  to set the new file defaults to metric without having to alter may settings in the TC explorer palette, one would use the page set-up wizard (File menu).  open blank metric template, run the page set-up wizard, reset anything else in TC like grid, text fonts etc. and save as a template for any new drawings.

If windows won't allow saving the new template into the TC template folder (this is a MS Windows protection thing), move it there manually.

The title block is just that, a block, you can create your own title block which can be saved with the file, delete the block that the programmers have added to some templates.


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* April 08, 2018, 01:48:55 PM
#2
Thank you Andy.

That's what I was trying to do with the A4 sheet- I wanted it in Imperial scales, and have done that, but I also wanted a portrait layout This is to suit the sort of physically small detail parts I wish to draw, and the format facilitates archiving the prints in a readable way in an ordinary ring-binder or similar. Unfortunately it looked to me as if TC does not allow anything other than landscape layout despite the option appearing on various menus - hence my asking if that's really true!
(I've noticed the paper menus are not very consistent. I'm not sure how many TC uses, but whilst at least one offers the A-number sheets, others do not.

It also rendered the template title-block I had made, unuseable - the other point I'd asked. Although the text was on the image it was not repeated in the Properties menu so I could not edit it.

I've just had a look at that cursor option you suggested. Yes - that cured it! Yet I'd not knowingly used that Preferences menu so I must have inadvertently struck some arcane key-combination or something.

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Nigel.

On TC Deluxe 19: hobby use.


* April 08, 2018, 09:34:11 PM
#3
Have you established your paperspace layout through the menu item Insert|Paperspace|properties|page setup?  That's where you harmonise your printer settings with TC's print setup, including orientation, if that's not done your printer's preferences may override those that you established in TC.     Default dimension fonts and sizes can be set in the TC Explorer palette.  Yes, it's another thing you have to learn.   Alternatively, set them once when you first use dimensions and they'll remain with those settings for the  rest of your session unless you change them, in which case they'll follow your change.   They don't revert after each use.  Your TC version might also have Format Painter, which can copy and transfer those properties from one dimension to another if you haven't been consistent in your application.
TC doesn't convert anything that you haven't dictated, nor does it block your editing, unless you've locked an object's layer.  It doesn't do anything that you haven't told it to do.  TC is only a set of instructions presented in a way that you have to learn the syntax of.  It's complicated because it has many functions, it isn't malign, adversarial or obstructive.   

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* April 08, 2018, 09:54:53 PM
#4
You need to make a template file of your own.
Start a new drawing change all the text settings dimension settings layers etc to the way you like to draw.

I would recommend using paper space it is the way a lot of other CAD programs work and it is efficient, once you understand it.
You can set up as many paper spaces you need in a file. I have a few with different title blocks on them - some people use a library file with different title blocks - that also works but you still need to set up the page layout every time.
This is how I have set up my template.
Make a new page (right click on an existing page and select insert). rename it if you want.
Go to file, page setup (not page set up wizard which changes the default settings for the program) , change the settings to whatever you want for that page.
Draw your own title block - you don't have to use the default ones - I never do.

Save the file as a template. (TCT instead of TCW)
From now on when you start a drawing - use your template instead of one of the templates which was supplied with the program.
All the settings you set up in the template should be there.
Note windows might prevent you from saving directly to the template folder. Save it somewhere else and move it to the template folder. To find out where the template folder is look under options file location.

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Nikki
TC20 platinum
TC 2015 platinum
TC 2017 with lightworks


* April 09, 2018, 12:11:20 AM
#5
When "Save As", just click on the button up on left side in the menu that turns up, where it say History/ Drawing or something, then you can choose there Template and will come automatic to the correct place.
There you can also click on "Custom" if you want to make shortcut to some other places for save drawing's, very handy if there is not to many shortcut then ;)

Torfinn

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* April 09, 2018, 01:23:36 PM
#6
Please excuse me if I appear to have duplicated this message. I did reply this afternoon but having closed and re-opened this forum since, I could not see it, suggesting I'd not actually posted it.

Thank you for those replies.

Murray - thinking about it, perhaps what I thought was TC reverting my work to its default was actually TC refusing to accept it in the first place, presumably because I'd not asked in the right place.

NIkki - I'll try that. I'd come to thinking you normally draw in Model Space and copy the image to Paper Space. I've an idea that might work properly only if the paper sizes are compatible throughout. TC's menus in that regard confuse me because it seems to have at least 2, with A-series sizes on only one of them. I've also to consider the printer choice - I have both the general-purpose A4 machine I'd bought a while ago, and an A4 printer bought for TC.

I've still not sorted out how you are meant to produce enlarged-scale drawings of small items with the correct dimensions because  copying them to PS then magnifying by the X and Y Scale boxes in the Inspector Bar also magnifies the dimensions' values! It's possible to work round it by editing them in Properties (remove the < and >, re-type the numbers), but that's not a very elegant solution. The guide's not much help: the sentence or two about "associative" dimensions hint that's the problem, but don't explain.     

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Nigel.

On TC Deluxe 19: hobby use.


* April 09, 2018, 02:21:23 PM
#7
Your work shouldn't be copied from model space into paper space.  You create viewports, framed views of model space, which you then insert into paper space.  These are views of your model space, not copies of model space, and while the views can be scaled, ie enlarged or reduced, dimensions applied to views in paper space are correct because they measure the model space dimension, not the scaled size in the viewport. 
These are the steps:  get the view you want in the model space drawing window, invoke "create view", drag the frame around the part of the drawing you want in paper space, give it a name in the dialog box that appears or accept the default name.
Go to paper space, invoke "insert viewport", drag its frame over the paper in that window and nominate the view you want to place from the list.  The view you framed in model space will appear in the boxed area you've just framed in paper space.
Select the frame around the view that's appeared, and right-click properties.  In the properties box, go to the "viewport" item.  You'll see the "scale" parameter there.  When you first open it, the scale is unfixed and the ratio is variable, changed by stretching the box around the viewport.  Check the "fixed" option and then you can stipulate the scale that you want, that will be printed when you print  the sheet.  You can type any scale you want there, you aren't restricted to the choices in the drop down list.  You can scale up by citing the larger factor on the left of the colon in that box.  You'll also see that at the bottom of that properties sheet, you can stipulate whether the box around the view is to be visible or not.  If not, clicking in the area of the frame will still select it. 
Now, when you dimension that view in paper space (which is a view, not a copy), the dimension will measure the correct, real, unscaled size, not the scaled size that the sheet will print, and the font, size and dimension properties that you apply in paper space are not scaled, and they don't change if you change the scale of the viewport.
 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 06:33:11 PM by murray dickinson »

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* April 09, 2018, 02:47:12 PM
#8
For printing, go to file|print preview, select the page setup item.  There you'll see your paper space layout settings and your printer settings together, including the orientation of the sheet for both, and you reconcile them there.  You'll also see settings like "keep centered", and another "scale" setting which will override those you've set if you change it or check "fit" (to page), but experimenting with these shows you how it'll be fitted and oriented in the preview.  Once you've established these, you can select the print setup and again verify that your printer settings harmonise with the settings you've just nominated.  Remember to check the "OK" box at the bottom of these dialogs to confirm your settings, or they will revert.  Your print should be as you want if you've done these things. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 06:27:11 PM by murray dickinson »

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* April 09, 2018, 06:19:29 PM
#9
Associative dimensions update when you've changed the dimension that they measure.  When you edit the general properties figure, it's  destructive: you break the association, the value no longer updates once you've done that.  When you're applying the associative dimension in a scaled viewport in paper space, the dimension is the true, unscaled dimension, and it updates automatically when you edit the object/s in model space - without your having to edit it in the paper space viewport.   
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 06:26:45 PM by murray dickinson »

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* April 10, 2018, 12:30:36 PM
#10
Thank you Murray!

Viewports are the kind of things the Manual does not explain - it assumes you know all about them and need only to know their controls in TC-speak.

I think, from all the answers and then searching the menus and the New Drawing procedure very carefully, I was trying to ask TurboCAD to go beyond its design.

Firstly, I now believe it has only one paper-size list, and that is American-only. Although Legal and one of the ANSI set are near A4, the differences may be enough to create margin and scaling problems. Perhaps what I thought was a second layout menu is NOT in TC, but is part of my printer driver, called by the Print commands from TC.

Secondly, I think TC assumed all technical drawings would be in Landscape format, irrespective of paper shape and size, which is why it cannot accept my Portrait request. As above, the option may actually be that in my printer-driver. I may be better accepting this and always using Landscape mode even when logically Portrait is actually the more appropriate way. I can always swing the image 90º but this does risk distorting it.


While searching I discovered what that odd cursor circle is called, decided it's at least harmless and may even help if it's  what I think it is.

On label and dimension font setting, try as I might I could not find how to set them at the start of the work to avoid having to edit them all later.

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Nigel.

On TC Deluxe 19: hobby use.


* April 10, 2018, 03:03:29 PM
#11
Does it surprise you to discover that you're wrong about the paper sizes, Nigel?   Accusing TC of "assuming" anything is laughable.  TC, like any application, has default settings to accommodate naive users.  They can be changed to suit the user's preference when the user learns how to do so.   You are resistant to learning how to use it, experiment and investigation, and you complain endlessly that that's the program's deficiency.  Happy travels.

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* April 10, 2018, 09:35:18 PM
#12
Available paper sizes can depend on the default printer. To get bigger sizes then the default printer, I print to pdf which has more sizes available.

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Nikki
TC20 platinum
TC 2015 platinum
TC 2017 with lightworks


* April 11, 2018, 09:51:13 AM
#13
NIkki:
Overall sheet size is not the problem. I can't use pdf files unfortunately, as I've no software for them, and don't understand them. However I can print up to A3 size (I don't know the ANSI nearest), and bought the A3 printer specifically for using with TurboCAD. I find it very difficult to match the non-ISO sizes TC offers when you start a new drawing, with the only paper I can buy, which is in ISO-A sizes. The margins differ enough to make it difficult to print without cropping.   

Murray:
Oh thank you for your kind words of encouragement!

I genuinely cannot not find a set-up menu that includes A-series paper sizes; and acknowledge possibly being misled by what is really my printer driver. I spent a long evening combing menues, starting new drawings and all sorts, but if I've not hit an inherent limit in TC, something's obviously beyond my understanding.

I am NOT "resistant" to learning TurboCAD. It cost me nearly £50 for the software, and about £100 for the A3 printer, paper and ink are not cheap; so I had every intention of learning at least its more important areas.

I have spent hours experimenting, often using just a few random, simple shapes. Sometimes the command works as its name and the on-line Manual suggest it will. At other times I cannot make it work, and cannot understand why not.

Essentially, I find this software extremely difficult. I don't blame IMSI. Although it or its agents sell TurboCAD to private users , and I bought my copy at a model-engineering exhibition, CAD software is really for industrial use by trained professionals. I don't have their resources or abilities.

If you already have CAD experience, or at least an unusually deep aptitude for learning software, teaching yourself TurboCAD is a bit easier. When you approach it cold, even with a background of knowing engineering drawings and how to make things, it puts a huge barrier of additional skills between them, and these skills are not at all easy to acquire without deep background CAD knowledge. I do not have that knowledge. 

I have tried very hard but may have reached my natural learning limit: very simple, two-dimensional, Paper Space only. Someone tells me how to crack 1 problem then I hit 2 more, though I've found odd work-rounds such as manually editing dimensions to cover mis-matches or copying effects.

I might become vaguely proficient at using TC to a basic level, but never to its full potential or even efficiently. A pity because 3D is potentially very useful to me. Otherwise.... cut my losses and return to manual drawing; more laborious but saving hours of frustration.

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Nigel.

On TC Deluxe 19: hobby use.


* April 12, 2018, 12:26:38 AM
#14
Hi Nigel
Don't give up we all had the similar issues when we migrated from the board to the computer.
The paper sizes are not a TC thing they depend on your printer.
Make sure that the printer where TC is getting the settings from is the A3 printer.
To do this, When in paper space go to" file " "page setup".
The name of the printer is at the top under printer paper - if it is not the right printer click on setup and select the correct printer from the pull down list. If you have an A3 printer A3 should be included in the list.
The only reason I suggested printing to PDF is because my default printer is A4 and I generally have A1 drawings which are printed by a third party. Pdf printer drivers have all the paper sizes.https://www.prepressure.com/library/paper-size
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 12:54:11 AM by nikkipollard »

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Nikki
TC20 platinum
TC 2015 platinum
TC 2017 with lightworks


* April 12, 2018, 02:25:36 AM
#15
That's not so, Nikki.  Of course they're buit into TC, not the printer.  How would people set up spaces to take to a commercial print bureau if that was so?   I can set up paper spaces to A0 size, independent of the capacity of my domestic printer.  As the page setup screen grab I posted, Drawing Sheet Size is clearly shown - with the printer properties and its sheet size capacity - unrelated to the drawing sheet size - immediately above. 

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* April 12, 2018, 08:58:07 AM
#16
Murray Not on my machine.
You can set up a page size but you cant select  a paper size that is not available on your printer. I just double checked.
Compare the list for the printer sheet size and the sheet size. Then change the printer and you will see that they differ depending on the printer.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 09:11:53 AM by nikkipollard »

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Nikki
TC20 platinum
TC 2015 platinum
TC 2017 with lightworks


* April 12, 2018, 01:36:12 PM
#17
Thank you.

I have copied the bulk of your advice into a 'Word' document and broken it into short steps I can follow.

I noticed something a bit odd with one paper-size / drawing-size option, but can't remember on which menu! It had previously not let me select "portrait" but this time, it did, so I don't know if I'd gone about things in a slightly different order or something.

I don't have a problem selecting the printer itself from Page Setup, as long as I remember which one of the two to switch on! They both appear in the list, and I have used both printers at different times.


As for not giving up, it's becoming harder to stick with it because I am running into an unending morass of difficulties and problems, even on very basic, two-dimensional, orthographic drawings. I've no longer any illusions about being able to learn TC to an advanced 2D level, let alone 3D. 


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Nigel.

On TC Deluxe 19: hobby use.


* April 12, 2018, 03:02:36 PM
#18
Nikki, you can set up whatever page size because you can print that page setup over multiple pages of your printer page size and tape 'em together, as we less sophisticated types did in the days before there were local bureaus....

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* April 12, 2018, 04:10:38 PM
#19
Round Two because I'd run out of time, but that wretched Captcha thing doesn't tell you till you've ticked 57 bridges and shops.

Gluing sheets together... Like a fold-out diagram in a small club's magazine I once edited. Each diagram had 4 A4 sheets glued together end-to-end so the diagram ran seamlessly (ish) from sheet to sheet, with one free end stapled into the magazine. In all 50 copies...

ANYWAY...

Viewports.

I've tried following your instructions for making the Model Space image appear in Paper Space. I looked in the pdf Manual too but that tells you only draw in one, set it for printing in the other.

I copied a small drawing I'd made, into the MS of a new one, then followed your description carefully.

"invoke 'create view' " in Model Space. It took me some time to find the control, largely by guesswork since nothing is obvious or intuitive, as View > Named views > Create view. Then name it. I did that (used the default).

Move to Paper Space. The image was not there, but I was not too worried so far because I assumed TC is really only copying the thing and just needs the magic words you then quote:

   invoke "insert viewport".

I tried, but for the life of me I cannot find that command by that name, in all manner of different menus. I could not imagine you'd mis-typed "insert view" instead, but still looked. There is no such command.

In desperation I returned to View > Named views > Named View, but that promptly switched back to MS and opened a Views index over it. My created views were all there, or at least their names were, but that's not much help. I even tried "Paste". That failed.

I don't know if we have different editions of TurboCAD which might have different menus, but I have probably have missed some small but important step, somewhere further back: I have no idea what or where.

No wonder I find TurboCAD becoming impossible to learn.


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Nigel.

On TC Deluxe 19: hobby use.


* April 12, 2018, 04:58:41 PM
#20
I use multiple versions of TC, Nigel, and the only thing that I do to the User Interface is switch to traditional TC, with a pale background, because I find it easier to see than with the dark default UI in recent versions, no custom changes otherwise.  In the picture attached to those instructions on Reply #7 of this thread, I've shown the tool button on the pictorial menus, if you look at it you'll see that it's just below the "Add Ons" menu.  I showed in the dark UI because I assumed that that's what you're using.   Those buttons are "flyout", click on them and the buttons for the options for that menu flyout.  It might be that different screen resolutions place them at different points along the top of the screen, I don't know.  So try flying-out all of those button menus until you find the one that flies out with those two buttons shown in that picture.  Enlarge and print the picture of the buttons if it helps you to see them clearer.   

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* April 12, 2018, 05:35:12 PM
#21
Nigel, "Create view," "Insert viewport," and several related tools are available on the "Named View" Toolbar. Go to View>Toolbars to select this toolbar and place it on your TCad desktop.

Henry H

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* April 12, 2018, 11:29:10 PM
#22
When you hover the cursor over the buttons or over the menu items, a tool tip appears, which tells you the tool you're hovering over.  Insert Viewport's tool tip  is "insert viewport".   At the same time, a description of the button is there to read in the bottom left hand of the screen, and "insert viewport" brings up "select a rectangular area to create the viewport".  Instead of telling us "there is no such command", post a screen shot of your entire screen so that any one of us can tell you exactly where the nonesuch command is, even if we're reduced to counting buttons.  You're still resisting and insisting that it's all TC's fault.   In this view of the default flyout header toolbars, the named view buttons are at the bottom of the standard views toolbars.  Yes, you don't want to use any view other than plan, but take the leap, hmm?

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* April 13, 2018, 02:30:20 AM
#23
Got it!  I've found the Views toolbar and placed it on the screen. I had no idea it existed. I'd been following the main toolbar View and Insert menus.

I use the "traditional" pale background set up, as I found it's easier to read than the new black background one.

So I've gone back to the original instructions, followed them to Create a framed View of the model image, but when I switched to Paper Space and tried to place that viewport, it placed only the frame. No sign of the drawing.

I did look at it by Print Preview and that proved the rectangle is indeed part of the operator, not an image.

I looked again, noting that as you use the Paper side of things an instruction appears at the bottom left of the screen. The steps and results I used were:

  IN PS, select the newly-found Insert Viewport button. A little dotted square appeared around the cursor arrow, and the rubric changed from Define first to Define second, corners of the viewport. This drew a solid-line rectangle on the "paper", but still no drawing so far.
 
 It also gave the saved view list, so I highlighted the correct one. Still no drawing, but of 4 buttons, 2 were active: "Close" and "Go to". Not "insert view" or anything similarly obvious - this is why I find TC so confusing.

Anyway with no other choice available, after several false starts that only drew rectangles, I tried it and sure enough "Go to" here means "Insert view". Why doesn't it say so? I'd read "Go to" as a link to well, anything: print? save? model space?

So at last I had the drawing on the "paper", and indeed I could enlarge it without losing the right dimensions.

I have still to find how you remove the viewport frame, which now shows in Print Preview so would presumably appear on a physical copy.
 

I am NOT trying to "resist" anything, and if I blame TurboCAD for anything it is only for not giving logical, clear names to many of its controls. It's a bit like MS 'Access' in that many terms do not mean or act as you'd logically expect, so hiding what you are trying to find. It's easy for you experts used to such oddities, but when you are new to CAD from cold, it can lead you so far astray you fear you made a big, expensive mistake in buying the software and printer.

As for using only "plan view" - well,  orthographic so at least 2 elevations - can you blame me? If I have so much trouble with these basics, I would have no hope with 3D, or isometric drawing. I have looked at it, and managed to make a pretty picture of a cuboid with assorted holes and slots, and of 3 cylinders intersecting at right-angles about their common centres... but I don't believe I could make useful isometric engineering drawings with it. 

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Nigel.

On TC Deluxe 19: hobby use.


* April 13, 2018, 03:27:17 AM
#24
To Hide the frame either give it an invisible line style or go to its properties(by right clicking the mouse) and on the viewport page there is a check box to either show it or hide it.

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Nikki
TC20 platinum
TC 2015 platinum
TC 2017 with lightworks


April 13, 2018, 03:43:40 AM
#25
Nigel,

     I would recommend, at least, reading the manual . . .  see below . . . before, mudslinging!  ;)

Regards Tim

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You can design without engineering, but you cannot engineer without design.
Using Win 10 with Designer 2017 and TurboCAD Pro. Plat. 2016/2017/2018 + Lightworks (64-bit versions) + AnimationLab.


* April 13, 2018, 07:42:47 AM
#26
Thank you Tim - I'll try it. I was somewhere near it but when I tried selecting the viewport frame it seemed to pick up the drawing too, so I thought I'd missed something somewhere again.

I had attempted to search the manual but it's not easy (I think others have commented on that too), and the only bits I could find on the matter didn't tell me anything very helpful. So very frustrating.

I have printed the Contents page as a 'Word' document - I was surprised I could do that because I've normally found .pdf and similar to be locked - or I don't have the relevant converters. Anyway, having edited the copy to a compact format, it does make searching the on-line document easier, because it reduces the flying back and forth. I wonder if doing similar with the parts of the manual useful to me (about half of it) might mean I could search for specific words by Word's "Find" feature? (Don't worry IMSI, I'm not going to breach your copyright!)

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Nigel.

On TC Deluxe 19: hobby use.


* April 13, 2018, 07:47:12 AM
#27
Found it Tim, thank-you!

Yes, it does select the lot but I tried Properties and found you can home in on the Viewport component alone, then just un-tick "Visible box". 

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Nigel.

On TC Deluxe 19: hobby use.