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Creating realistic gable roofs
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* April 22, 2017, 09:37:59 AM
Hi everybody, I don't know a lot of you but I used to be very involved with TC up until around 2008. Anyway, I am back at it and making my way back to the home design business. I am delving into the 3d aspect of TurboCAD seriously for the first time and have had no issues with any of it with the exception of designing a 3d gable roof accurately. I spoke with Dave Taylor and he said that some of you are very advanced with 3d roofs so I'm hoping that you can help me out a bit and if the functions don't exist, perhaps we can make some suggestions for the next version.

I typically draw my homes with a shorter overhang on the gable end side of the roof and a slightly longer overhang on the truss tail side of the roof, usually 16" gables and 24" truss tail. This allows for a clean transition from one roof to the other IMO. I have found that TC does not allow you do have different overhangs in different directions. The other thing that I have had to do to get the roof to look like it should is to draw several different roofs using lines to snap to where girder trusses would actually exist. And that's really no big deal, but I then need to make all these roofs meet in order to create the valleys where the roofs meet. I have drawn my entire roof with no overhangs because this is really where the biggest problem lies in what I am trying to do, in the overhangs.


My suggestion on how to fix this issue would be to have a separate overhang tool that would allow you to extrude overhangs along the edge of the main roof and then be able to assemble them. Roofs can be so complex and there are so many instances where you have trusses with varying overhangs, areas where the truss has no tail because it sits in a girder, areas where the truss actually is stubbed back due to bearing points changing, etc. I've been wrapping my head around this for about a month and can see in my head how the roof tools could be added to in order to create more real world type roofs. The other thing that I've had to do in order to create a gable end where a wall doesn't continue under the gable end is to draw a wall on top of a wall then meet that to the roof, of course this leaves a line between the wall and gable end. Pretty much every other 3D function of the program that I have used is working very well for the type of work I do BTW.

If there is something that I'm missing here somewhere and TC actually has the functions that I'm looking for please let me know.


https://goo.gl/photos/cVEQ77uKgvczL5iA9

« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 09:41:52 AM by Kevin Mendenhall »

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* April 22, 2017, 11:28:06 AM
#1
Hi everybody, I don't know a lot of you but I used to be very involved with TC up until around 2008. Anyway, I am back at it and making my way back to the home design business. I am delving into the 3d aspect of TurboCAD seriously for the first time and have had no issues with any of it with the exception of designing a 3d gable roof accurately. I spoke with Dave Taylor and he said that some of you are very advanced with 3d roofs so I'm hoping that you can help me out a bit and if the functions don't exist, perhaps we can make some suggestions for the next version.

I typically draw my homes with a shorter overhang on the gable end side of the roof and a slightly longer overhang on the truss tail side of the roof, usually 16" gables and 24" truss tail. This allows for a clean transition from one roof to the other IMO. I have found that TC does not allow you do have different overhangs in different directions. The other thing that I have had to do to get the roof to look like it should is to draw several different roofs using lines to snap to where girder trusses would actually exist. And that's really no big deal, but I then need to make all these roofs meet in order to create the valleys where the roofs meet. I have drawn my entire roof with no overhangs because this is really where the biggest problem lies in what I am trying to do, in the overhangs.


My suggestion on how to fix this issue would be to have a separate overhang tool that would allow you to extrude overhangs along the edge of the main roof and then be able to assemble them. Roofs can be so complex and there are so many instances where you have trusses with varying overhangs, areas where the truss has no tail because it sits in a girder, areas where the truss actually is stubbed back due to bearing points changing, etc. I've been wrapping my head around this for about a month and can see in my head how the roof tools could be added to in order to create more real world type roofs. The other thing that I've had to do in order to create a gable end where a wall doesn't continue under the gable end is to draw a wall on top of a wall then meet that to the roof, of course this leaves a line between the wall and gable end. Pretty much every other 3D function of the program that I have used is working very well for the type of work I do BTW.

If there is something that I'm missing here somewhere and TC actually has the functions that I'm looking for please let me know.


https://goo.gl/photos/cVEQ77uKgvczL5iA9

You can use the Edit tool to adjust overhangs after creating a Roof.

The last few versions of TCad have offered the Roof Slab tool, which is quite versatile but IMO not easy to use. Attached screenshot was made when I was playing with this tool in v22.

Sometimes it's easier to forget about the various "Roof" tools and use the regular 3D modeling tools instead.

Henry H

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* April 22, 2017, 02:18:45 PM
#2
Hi Henry,
Speaking of the roof slab tool, could you sum up what it's main purpose is? I have converted a few roofs to slabs but had a little bit of a hard time trying to get anything to act like I would expect it to.

I will mess with the edit tool a bit, I didn't realize that you could adjust overhangs with it. Since I'm not a programmer, I don't know how hard it is to create tools (I can't imagine how difficult it must be) but being a builder for most of my life, I understand how roofs go together very well. It would be nice if we could make this process much easier.

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* April 22, 2017, 02:37:51 PM
#3
You can also use the Roof Modifier tool to adjust the overhang and if you set the roofangle to 157.62 ?? when raise the gable's, it will cover the main roof instead of going in to the "second floor"
I have no ide'a about what it will be in Rise and Run :)

Torfinn

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* April 22, 2017, 03:45:40 PM
#4
Hi Henry,
Speaking of the roof slab tool, could you sum up what it's main purpose is? I have converted a few roofs to slabs but had a little bit of a hard time trying to get anything to act like I would expect it to.

I will mess with the edit tool a bit, I didn't realize that you could adjust overhangs with it. Since I'm not a programmer, I don't know how hard it is to create tools (I can't imagine how difficult it must be) but being a builder for most of my life, I understand how roofs go together very well. It would be nice if we could make this process much easier.

Not really sure what its main purpose is, Kevin. But it allows one to create a "shed" roof or a Mansard roof, both of which are difficult with the regular Roof tools.

Henry H

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* April 23, 2017, 01:28:04 AM
#5
Hi Kevin. I use roof slabs for more complex roofs. I usually start with the roof by walls tool , change gables etc then explode to slabs. I find them useful as you can move slabs individually. Have different overhangs , add gables on flat sides, and different eaves heights. They are more work then the old tool, nothing is automatic. When using the old tool you would have to explode the roof and use polylines to change wall heights. Start again if you changed anything with roof slabs you don't need to start from scratch.

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Nikki
TC20 platinum
TC 2015 platinum
TC 2017 with lightworks


* April 23, 2017, 06:51:26 AM
#6
I agree with Henry.
Use the 3D modeling tools.
Tc's architectural tools are primitive, good for design work, small projects,perhaps.
If you understand roof/wall construction then you can draw it in TC.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 06:54:34 AM by Dean »

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2016-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21(Best working version,IMHO) Using Lightworks for reliability/stability and testing redsdk, Anilab lab 5, Renditioner Pro V3. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100


* April 23, 2017, 08:52:57 AM
#7
I do much the same as Nikki, use the roof tool as far as possible, then convert to Roof Slab if i need something more advanced and very seldom see the needs for using 3D primitives.
Simple Manzard and Gambrel roof i make in a couple of sec with ppm, but of course it is not a "real" roof then.
Another benefit with using Roof Tools vises primitives is the possebility to collect info by TC database later, if needed.

The only thing i really miss in the Roof Tools are the possebility to make a horizontal cut in the bottom of a roof beam, now i need to cheat that part in P Space/ section i.e.

Torfinn

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* April 23, 2017, 09:22:02 AM
#8
"Another benefit with using Roof Tools vises primitives is the possebility to collect info by TC database later, if needed."

Hey old buddy  :) that's not all true

You can 'define fields' to any object and those fields can be extracted using the database.
You can add way  ;D more "info" needed to assure material/cost report and design intent.

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2016-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21(Best working version,IMHO) Using Lightworks for reliability/stability and testing redsdk, Anilab lab 5, Renditioner Pro V3. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100


* April 23, 2017, 09:44:02 AM
#9
Hei gamle ørn :)

Maybe, really never tested i think, i am lazy by nature ;)
But i get the few i want by the roof tool.

Torfinn

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* April 23, 2017, 11:29:34 AM
#10
Thank you all for your replies. I will start tinkering with my roof using your tips and see if I can get a better grasp of what I'm doing. I'll post back here as I make some progress. One question... say I have two separate roofs that I want to connect where it would create a valley, would the best way to do that be to convert both roofs to slabs and then do a 3d slice and remove the portion that overlaps? This type of situation exists in the drawing that I attached to my first post. I have to say that I just remembered how great this forum was and is, the willingness of people here who like helping others, I haven't experienced the same anywhere else on the internet.

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* April 23, 2017, 12:50:14 PM
#11
Thank you all for your replies. I will start tinkering with my roof using your tips and see if I can get a better grasp of what I'm doing. I'll post back here as I make some progress. One question... say I have two separate roofs that I want to connect where it would create a valley, would the best way to do that be to convert both roofs to slabs and then do a 3d slice and remove the portion that overlaps? This type of situation exists in the drawing that I attached to my first post. I have to say that I just remembered how great this forum was and is, the willingness of people here who like helping others, I haven't experienced the same anywhere else on the internet.

Attached screenshot shows a single "Roof" made with TCad's Roof tool. I did not have to convert or slice.

Henry H

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* April 23, 2017, 01:19:43 PM
#12
Yeah, but it dont look like Kevins roof, the left side is to long, the mainpart have same width and you miss a roof in the upper rigth end
And the roof over the entrance is not on the same level as the other roofs

Torfinn

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* April 23, 2017, 01:57:16 PM
#13
I did the below based on (starting with) the Kevin Mendenhall/Smith Residence file in our Samples folder.  Version-20ProPlatinum.

I used the basic Roof tool, and a whole bunch of Slicing, Subtracting, etc. and otherwise modifying.
The only roof intersection that I didn't need to fiddle with was the patio-to-house.

I don't know that I would have the patience to do this day-in & day-out.  And if there are revisions to be made to the roof?... man, tons more work.
Even when doing the attached, I quit.  You'll note the missing elements.  You've gotta love this stuff to have the patience/tolerance.  So. Much. Work.

-Alvin
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 03:12:39 PM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* April 23, 2017, 02:52:21 PM
#14
Yeah, but it dont look like Kevins roof, the left side is to long, the mainpart have same width and you miss a roof in the upper rigth end
And the roof over the entrance is not on the same level as the other roofs

Torfinn

Yeah. If I had the patience I'd try to fix that using Roof Slabs.

Henry H

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* April 23, 2017, 03:49:43 PM
#15
Alvin, you got exactly the effect that I am trying to achieve. I haven't had a lot of time to mess with it today but have just sat down to see what I can do. How long roughly did it take you to do this?

*Edit: As I am working on this, it seems to me that a huge amount of work could be saved if we had the option to adjust the various overhangs by direction, such as 24" tails and 16" gables. And I'm sure this is far fetched, but it would be cool if the roofs would connect when they intersect such as the walls do. I feel like TC is right on the verge of this being a super easy process, but just lacking a few functions that would save a lot of time,
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 04:19:04 PM by Kevin Mendenhall »

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* April 23, 2017, 04:25:35 PM
#16
Alvin, you got exactly the effect that I am trying to achieve. I haven't had a lot of time to mess with it today but have just sat down to see what I can do. How long roughly did it take you to do this?

How long?  Roughly an hour-plus.  I'm not good at this stuff.  In addition, I messed with Wall Modifiers and other stuff.  And today I am working on a single laptop monitor only; Zooming in and out and moving the camera around takes time.  I could do it again in about 20-minutes, especially if I had my large second monitor plugged in.
I used the basic Roof tool, and had to insert 4 of them:  1) The house main-span, including the patio (only able to do that because the patio and house have the same plate-heights); 2) The garage, making it much larger, front-to-back, then it ultimately need to be; 3) The entry, again making it... ; 4) The smaller gable at the Master Bath, also making it...

I'm in Bakersfield, California, you're in Phoenix, Arizona.  Our typical smaller not-so-custom houses are very similar; so I get what you're after.

Trouble with this 3D modeling of houses in our markets is:  No one wants to pay for the time it takes to produce them.  I don't blame them.

___________
I still don't know what the answer is for that other problem:  The filling in of the gable-end walls that the Wall Modifier doesn't take care of.  If we just draw something, in Hidden Line Render, we end up with a line where the wall and that something butt up against each other.

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* April 23, 2017, 06:53:53 PM
#17
I just discovered how to fill in the gable using the top wall modifier tool, seems to work ok for what I've used it on so far. I agree with the time thing, I'm hoping to get good enough at it and/or hoping that they will be able to work with us to make this process much faster. I'm also thinking about the time that would be saved (hopefully) by the elevations being done in 3d. In the past I have always done elevations in 2d, which was also time consuming. It sounds like you have some construction experience, or at least seem to understand how a roof goes together. In my mind, I have the components broken down into 3 parts, The Truss or main body of the roof, the tail end of the overhang, and the gable end overhang. If I could draw each one of those components individually then assemble them, I could draw pretty much any roof easily.

I'm confident that I will be able to draw this roof with the existing tools, but as you said, time is a factor. And I'm still wrapping my head around all of these tools that have been developed since I've been out of the TC world. As you mentioned, I'm also working on a laptop right now.

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* April 23, 2017, 07:56:20 PM
#18
To adjust/ connect Kevins roof take about 30 min
Then i copied it up 1 roofthickness and set the overhang to 24"( 16" on Entrance roof), make new modifiers that fit that like i believe it should be.
There will be a problem in the area where the mainroof have different width when adding overhang so tryd first to convert it to roofslab, but was not happy about how it look's, so just added a roofslab that covered the gap and also 1 more on the backside so i could drag it out about 30" to cover the wall/ window's on the backside ( Karnapp in Norwegian, have no idea about the name in English)
The RoofSlab is put in to a Category so i can turn them on/ of easy ( Design Director/ Category )

Torfinn

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* April 23, 2017, 11:54:52 PM
#19
The process I use is similar (almost identical) to Alvins method. Converting to slabs just means the roof is still a roof and there are a few roof slab tools to make the process easier (?). The roofslab/wall modifier tool saves time in that you don't have to draw those modifiers. Moving slabs vertically to change eaves height and rejoining them to the main roof is easier.

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Nikki
TC20 platinum
TC 2015 platinum
TC 2017 with lightworks


* April 24, 2017, 06:31:27 AM
#20
I just opened the Smith Res. file this morning and was surprised to see that it was one of the files from one of my old tutorials. It's been so long, I just wasn't expecting that. Lots of good memories here.

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