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3D Add Problem
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* June 04, 2016, 03:51:22 AM
Hi Everyone,
I needed a simple component for a 3D drawing, I decided to make three individual components & Add them together to form the single component required, as a learning exercise.
When trying to Add the components together I get an Error Message saying:

"The resultant ACIS Solid is degenerated. The boolean operation is discarded."

Is it possible to Add these three components together or have I done something incorrectly?

I can use a different method but I would like to know why I am having trouble with this way.

I have attached the file.

Thanks

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* June 04, 2016, 07:57:10 AM
#1
That's a stubborn case; none of my usual fixes worked. I suggest redrawing the thing as a single piece. One way of doing this is shown in the attached screenshot. I traced the shape with the red Polyline and extruded it to a Thickness of 90 mm. Then I created a 3D Box (blue) 45 mm thick, placed it in the extrusion to correspond to the location of the end face of your center object, and subtracted it from the new extrusion.

Henry H

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* June 04, 2016, 08:32:31 AM
#2
I explode them 2 times, i like explode ;), then i changed from Surface to Solid, and add them together, no problem
But i like Henry's way better, 1 object and then subtract

Torfinn

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* June 04, 2016, 09:08:19 AM
#3
Hi Everyone,
I needed a simple component for a 3D drawing, I decided to make three individual components & Add them together to form the single component required, as a learning exercise.
When trying to Add the components together I get an Error Message saying:

"The resultant ACIS Solid is degenerated. The boolean operation is discarded."

Is it possible to Add these three components together or have I done something incorrectly?

I can use a different method but I would like to know why I am having trouble with this way.

I have attached the file.

Thanks

All I did was select them and change their propertes to a solid then 3d added.
How and why were they set as surfaces?

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21.Using LightWorks, Anilab lab 5. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100 and HP all in one desktop with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3


* June 04, 2016, 01:36:27 PM
#4
All I did was select them and change their properties to a solid then 3d added.
How and why were they set as surfaces?

I believe the drawing was done in V21 Deluxe (21.2.59.1). Version 21 Pro is 21.2.59.0. This is why the Simple Extrudes are shown as a Surface .

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2019
Designer, Deluxe, (Professional, Expert, Basic), Platinum
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* June 04, 2016, 02:07:16 PM
#5
Hi everyone, thanks for the replies.

Henry,
Thanks for the workaround method, I am about to try it out.

Yes, as John mentioned I have Deluxe 21.2 which uses surfaces not solids?

In saying that I thought that this method would still work as I read that as long as the Objects where the same type (Surfaces or Solids) that all the 3D Boolean operations will work?
Please See Attachment.

That being the case, why does it not work with the above method?

Hi Torfinn,
I don't think I can change from surface to solids in Deluxe?

I will try a few things out & see how I go.

Thanks

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* June 04, 2016, 03:07:10 PM
#6

Hi Torfinn,
I don't think I can change from surface to solids in Deluxe?

Thanks

Thats correct, you cant, i was not aware of that you use DL :)

Torfinn

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* June 04, 2016, 04:21:15 PM
#7
Hi everyone, thanks for the replies.

Henry,
Thanks for the workaround method, I am about to try it out.

Yes, as John mentioned I have Deluxe 21.2 which uses surfaces not solids?

In saying that I thought that this method would still work as I read that as long as the Objects where the same type (Surfaces or Solids) that all the 3D Boolean operations will work?
Please See Attachment.

That being the case, why does it not work with the above method?

Hi Torfinn,
I don't think I can change from surface to solids in Deluxe?

I will try a few things out & see how I go.

Thanks

Ok, I tried it in Deluxe 21
I copied then pasted the three parts in a new drawing from scratch and 3D add worked, so something got corrupt.

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21.Using LightWorks, Anilab lab 5. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100 and HP all in one desktop with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3


* June 04, 2016, 04:31:30 PM
#8
Hi Dean,

I tried that yesterday with no luck so I just tried it again but still the same error message?

Should I reinstall TurboCad maybe?

Thanks

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* June 04, 2016, 05:04:33 PM
#9
Hi Dean,

I tried that yesterday with no luck so I just tried it again but still the same error message?

Should I reinstall TurboCad maybe?

Thanks
No, I wouldn't re-install just yet.
I think there might be a bug with the metric system.Try copying and pasting the three parts in a new imperial units (inches) drawing template, the 3D add works for me.
If I copy and paste in the A0 template 3D add doesn't work.

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21.Using LightWorks, Anilab lab 5. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100 and HP all in one desktop with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3


* June 04, 2016, 06:05:16 PM
#10
Hi Dean,
I just tried a few things out:
Firstly I tried your suggestion & copied & pasted to an Imperial template with odd results, two of the components Added fine but the third would not in several different templates.
Then I used the select tool & found a polyline sandwiched between two of the components, I deleted it & the three components Added fine.
I copied & pasted the individual components from the Imperial template back to the Metric template & they Added fine also.

I returned back to the original Metric template & components but the select tool would not find the polyline even with the three components disassembled.

So I redrew all three, extruded them & removed them from the polines to make sure & they Added perfectly.

So, I guess it was my fault leaving a polyline on one extruded component, funny that the select tool would not find it in the metric template but in the Imperial template it did?
All is working good at the moment, maybe when I Added the components the first time with the polyline still on one of them it Added the polyline to the component so the select tool was only finding the extruded component, if that makes sense or is possible?

Thanks to everyone once again
Cheers


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* June 04, 2016, 06:20:57 PM
#11
Hi Dean,
I just tried a few things out:
Firstly I tried your suggestion & copied & pasted to an Imperial template with odd results, two of the components Added fine but the third would not in several different templates.
Then I used the select tool & found a polyline sandwiched between two of the components, I deleted it & the three components Added fine.
I copied & pasted the individual components from the Imperial template back to the Metric template & they Added fine also.

I returned back to the original Metric template & components but the select tool would not find the polyline even with the three components disassembled.

So I redrew all three, extruded them & removed them from the polines to make sure & they Added perfectly.

So, I guess it was my fault leaving a polyline on one extruded component, funny that the select tool would not find it in the metric template but in the Imperial template it did?
All is working good at the moment, maybe when I Added the components the first time with the polyline still on one of them it Added the polyline to the component so the select tool was only finding the extruded component, if that makes sense or is possible?

Thanks to everyone once again
Cheers

The drawing you posted contains only three Simple Extrudes. No polylines. But when I pasted them into an empty Imperial template, they did add with no trouble.

Henry H

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* June 04, 2016, 06:44:27 PM
#12
Hi Henry,
I'm not sure what's going on, in the Imperial template mine selects a polyline-please see attachment?

I just made three more components & in the Metric template they will not Add once again so I switched to an Imperial template & it worked fine?

Cheers

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* June 05, 2016, 01:00:48 AM
#13
Sorry for the double post!

The 3D Add now refuses to work correctly in any Template even with two basic 3D blocks drawn.
In the templates where I don't get the Error Warning the Add still doesn't work correctly & everything looks like individual components instead of being added together even though a single select click will select them, the components render together but look like individual components as well.

It worked a couple of times but not now?
It is now worse than before so should I re-Install TurboCad & try again as something is not right?

For the Deluxe version 3d Add is necessary for some things & I would like to have it working.

Cheers

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* June 05, 2016, 05:34:51 AM
#14
Maybe you should try starting with a New Drawing, using the Page Setup Wizard.

For diagnosis purpose, if nothing else.

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* June 05, 2016, 07:36:55 AM
#15
Sorry for the double post!

The 3D Add now refuses to work correctly in any Template even with two basic 3D blocks drawn.
In the templates where I don't get the Error Warning the Add still doesn't work correctly & everything looks like individual components instead of being added together even though a single select click will select them, the components render together but look like individual components as well.

It worked a couple of times but not now?
It is now worse than before so should I re-Install TurboCad & try again as something is not right?

For the Deluxe version 3d Add is necessary for some things & I would like to have it working.

Cheers

Try Alvin's advice first. Then try shutting TCad down completely and then restarting. Then try rebooting. If none of that helps, then run the TCad installer again, choosing the "Repair" option.

Sometimes the object resulting from 3D-Add does display some of the outlines of the original objects, BTW.

Henry H

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* June 05, 2016, 03:54:37 PM
#16
Hi Everybody, thanks for the replies once again!

I tried what Alvin suggested but with no luck, I also tried what Henry suggested with repairing the installation again with no luck.

After some long hours last night my thinking was that it may be "me" not understanding the program correctly & the limitations rather than expectations of what can & can't be done in the program.

I am confident I have found the cause of my concerns & I am not sure if the program should not do what the problem is.
Maybe I have no idea either being a CAD novice!

I have attached a very simple file of a box with two "polylines & the simple extrusions from them".

You will see the simple extrusions assembled to the main box in the center, the rectangle extrusion has been reduced in the Z Axis to be within the constraints of the main box & this will 3D Add without problems.
If you now increase the Z Axis beyond the Top of the center box the program will not 3d Add the components together. The same applies on any Axis.

The Triangle extrusion is overlapping the center box & will not 3d Add to the center box but if you assemble the small end of the triangle to the center box or reduce the size of the triangle to be within the constraints of the center box it will 3d Add without problems.

It seems that if there is an overlap things will not 3d Add together?

With my three piece component "ABOVE" the two outside pieces created overlaps & hence the issues with the 3d Add.

Is this normal?
If it is, it would be nice to have no constraints due to overlapping pieces!
One would think that having overlapped components shouldn't be an issue, it is 2016 after all :).

Am I on the right track with this?

Cheers





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* June 05, 2016, 04:46:07 PM
#17
Not only is it not normal, but I can't reproduce the problem. The attached screenshot was made in your drawing.

Henry H

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* June 05, 2016, 05:00:20 PM
#18
Hi Henry,

Not normal, Hmm, obviously I have an issue then as I cannot 3d Add as you have done, it only works for me as I mentioned.

Are you using the Deluxe Version 21.2 or the Pro Version?

What to do now to fix this, all I can think of is to clean install the program & try again.

Could it be a Win 10 issue I wonder?

Cheers


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* June 05, 2016, 06:17:44 PM
#19
Hi Henry,

Not normal, Hmm, obviously I have an issue then as I cannot 3d Add as you have done, it only works for me as I mentioned.

Are you using the Deluxe Version 21.2 or the Pro Version?

What to do now to fix this, all I can think of is to clean install the program & try again.

Could it be a Win 10 issue I wonder?

Cheers

Deluxe, version 21.0.27.4, 32-bit. Couldn't say whether the problem is Win 10-related.

Henry H

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* June 05, 2016, 06:59:07 PM
#20
Hi Henry,

Thanks for the reply.

I thought the easiest thing to do is to make a very short clip of a few problems I am having & it will show the issues clearly, more issue have now crept in?

In the clip firstly you will see I try to 3d Add the components together with the error message, then I reduce the size so there is no overlap & they will 3D Add.
Then I attempt to increase the Size-Thickness of the Rectangle & it moves the Rectangle along an Axis instead of increasing the Size-Thickness.
I then try to increase the Size-Thickness of the Triangle & nothing happens at all & it stays the same thickness.

I certainly have some problems.

I see that the forum takes mp4 files so I will just upload it here, I can upload to Youtube but I thought it best to stay in house so to speak?

You can see the issues I am having, I just want to draw with the damn thing but it's not to be at this stage until someone can help me out a little.

I am not complaining but it is a rough introduction to CAD programs :-\

Maybe it's the way I am doing things?

Hopefully someone can help me a little?
Cheers

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* June 05, 2016, 09:18:44 PM
#21
Sorry for the double post!

Henry,
I noticed in the 3D Add pictures you attached the Triangle piece is basically inside the box, the file I sent had the Rectangle & the Triangle assembled to the outside of the box, can you attach a file of the same with the components with overhang 3D Added together?

I decided to get an older computer running XP & loaded Deluxe 32bit with the exact same results as I am getting now?

I uninstalled the 64bit version on my good computer & loaded the 32bit version & am getting the exact same results as before.

So is it the Software I have on the CD I purchased?

Or am I trying to do something that the software is not capable of doing?

Cheers
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 09:23:41 PM by willeng »

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* June 06, 2016, 01:33:41 AM
#22
So is it the Software I have on the CD I purchased?

Or am I trying to do something that the software is not capable of doing?

I Agree with Dean, its a bug in the metric system, most likely a precision problem, it just doesn't like coincident faces passing beyond each other,  and not just with v21, I tried in v2016 Pro and the same bug problem occurs (when using TC surfaces in 64 bit windows 10).

If you move the vertical box into the square box just slightly you should find it will add ok, in Henry's drawing he has the triangle passing through the box, (indeed all the way through), TC doesn't have a problem with this, its just with TC surfaces which are touching and pass beyond one or the other.

That's my view anyway. 

## Edit ## just tried in v16 deluxe and the same problem occurs in metric, it works OK if I go to space units and switch to 'English' ## End Edit ##
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 01:41:29 AM by Andy H »

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* June 06, 2016, 02:16:45 AM
#23
Hi Andy H,
Thanks for the reply!

That does explain it very well, I have noticed as you suggested that moving deeper than the coincident face does work.
I changed to the 32 bit version & it has the same issue but it is somewhat hit or miss, sometimes it works & other times it doesn't.

Nothing a good Patch won't fix :)

Thanks everybody for the help.

Just one other question :)

What is the best version 32 bit or 64 bit, what is the difference, my Win 10 is 64 bit ?

Thanks

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June 06, 2016, 02:40:43 AM
#24
I would advise moving to 64-bit, if only to remove, what can be, restrictive memory issues.
Otherwise 32-bit is/should be the same.

Just a thought . . . as I don't know your situation, financial or CAD needs . . . but, if you are constantly working with 'solids', why not consider an upgrade to Pro. which will allow you to work with ACIS solids, which are more reliable and can be less problematic, IMHO?

Regards Tim

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You can design without engineering, but you cannot engineer without design.
Using Win 10 with Designer 2017 and TurboCAD Pro. Plat. 2016/2017/2018 + Lightworks (64-bit versions) + AnimationLab.


* June 06, 2016, 02:41:53 AM
#25
What is the best version 32 bit or 64 bit, what is the difference, my Win 10 is 64 bit ?
Thanks

To be honest I think its just personal preference and how much memory the drawing needs, Henry produces excellent drawings with 32 bit, but I have some which take the memory requirement over 4 gig (though this is in pro version), which 32 bit could struggle with.

Personally I switched to 64 bit when it was introduced in v19, and I don't think I've had any more problems with it than I had with 32 bit in pre v19 versions.


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* June 06, 2016, 08:37:34 AM
#26
"its just with TC surfaces which are touching and pass beyond one or the other."

Ah. That's what I was missing. And yup, it fails for me too in v21 Deluxe in Mr. Williams' drawing. And yup again, it works OK if I copy-and-paste into an empty drawing set up for Imperial units.

Sure does look like a BUG in the Metric system somewhere.

Now this is interesting: In Mr. Williams's drawing, I went to Options>Space Units and clicked the "English" System radio button. Then I saved the drawing and reopened it. And the 3D Add function worked just fine in the newly opened version of the drawing.

Henry H

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* June 06, 2016, 01:45:17 PM
#27
Hi Everybody,
Thanks for the replies once again.

Tim,
Yes, an upgrade to the Pro version will be a good move, I purchased the Deluxe version first as a learning tool to be honest.
I have much to learn first about dang computers ???

Andy,
Both you & Tim mention restrictive memory issues with the 32 bit for larger drawings which seems like a good reason to use the 64 bit versions, although I think it will be a while before I get to that stage.

Henry,
I tried what you mentioned with the Space units method & yes that does appear to work ok without any issues.
Hopefully IMSI will send out a Patch to fix the issue in the Metric system, the 3D ADD is a good tool if it works properly, I know I will use it a lot.

Thanks to everyone for the replies & the help, I know it's not easy putting up with novices with computers ;D

Back to the Drawing Board
Until Next Time, Have A Great Day!
Cheers





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* June 18, 2016, 11:02:49 PM
#28
Hi all, I've just purchased TC deluxe 2016 and installed 64bit on Windows 10, (amazing software :) ), but have encountered same problem. Found this handy thread so didn't need to experiment so much thanks to Willeng's persistent efforts and much of my frustration was quickly explained here ...thank you all.

So far just doing tutorial basic stuff with 3d shapes but playing around with this "bug', I can offer my 2cents:

1. (as mentioned) the 3D object being added, only ERRORS when it is outside the constraints of the adjoining facet

2. This is only true if the two 3D objects have any portion of said adjacent facets sharing the same X axis  (ie: move the position of either object 0.0001mm or more away from the others X axis in either negative or positive direction and you get no Error)

3. Oddly, this is only true for 3D objects 'breaking constraints" on the Eastern side of another 3D object, (from world plan view).  ..Picture this like a staircase going down from west to east.  As long as the western side graphics are larger, then you can share/snap to the adjacent facet and exact X-axis parameters then click 3D Add with no error. 


Another note: if you try to 3D Add to objects that break these rules using the method where you select with rectangle then click on "finish flag" (or right click + finish), the TC program crashes isntantly ...non responsive indefinitely and must force close the software losing all unsaved work + possible corruption to files.  There is not option for back up / cache save when this happens.


Anyway I'm a nooblet and also like Willeng, was wondering if I was using the tool wrong, but hmm, I don't think so at this point.  I'm in a very similar position, thought I'd learn and experiment on the very affordable Deluxe edition..  But sounds as though this bug is on the Pro 2016 as well on metric settings  :'(

Cheers all

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* June 19, 2016, 12:51:07 AM
#29
thought I'd learn and experiment on the very affordable Deluxe edition..  But sounds as though this bug is on the Pro 2016 as well on metric settings  :'(

Hi and welcome

Whilst it affects pro, in pro one would not normally be using TC surfaces, Pro uses ACIS solids which doesn't have this limitation.

Fortunately in TC there are often a variety of ways to do something, and in many cases it should be quite simple to overcome the limitation, in the original thread drawing one can subtract a box to get the shape, in the attached 'precision'  ;) part one cannot move either object, by drawing a box which passes into each object, one can add it to the 'finger' then add the result to the body (tested in v16 deluxe and 2016 pro).

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* June 19, 2016, 07:23:32 PM
#30
Hi anash,

As Andy has mentioned there are ways around things, I also have experienced the same issues as you have mentioned & you just have to try different things to get it to work for you. Obviously the problems need fixing as the same happens with 3D subtract & the Prism tool as well, only sometimes.

I have attached a picture of my first attempt at using the program correctly designing a single cylinder engine, I am a complete newbie with CAD draftings but not manually drafting, it's only the first trial so I can work the program out & how best to achieve what I want.
I had much trouble with 3D adding the main Crank Cases together just for rendering purposes only.
If you look in the center of the cases you will see I offset some Hollow Dowels & when I did it added them together, it would not add the cases together with the dowels centered correctly or in an imperial template etc or any other method?.

To be honest in this world we get what we pay for & I only paid $xx for Deluxe 21.2 & it really does some great things, obviously you have to find various ways to achieve things but for $xx & what it can do, I think it's great besides the issues with it, I am sure they will address the issues with the program & then it will be excellent.

Sorry for the poor rendering, I haven't tackled that part yet!

I have had Sh*t loads of fun working out how to beat the program into submission designing all the internal components for the engine etc but I haven't finished them yet & have also change the design from what is attached.
I will attach the complete engine when finished.

Cheers
David

Moderator Note - Sorry David, I edited out the price as only IMIS current published prices are allowed on the forum.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 01:01:14 AM by Andy H »

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* June 19, 2016, 09:17:15 PM
#31
Hi Everyone,

Thought I would show what happens with the 3D Subtract next time it happened, I'm attempting to subtract a cylinder from a component to make a hole as shown in the picture.
Very frustrating sometimes!
It won't Subtract in an Imperial Template either at the moment!

It's like some people I know, it will work but just not at the moment :)

Cheers
David

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* June 20, 2016, 01:17:35 AM
#32
Can you post a drawing of the subtraction problem.

Subtraction problems are unfortunately something that has can happen whether deluxe of pro, to my way of thinking its when TC cannot work out how to seal off the edges left on the object after a subtraction,

Also I edited your post above, in general prices are not allowed unless identical to the current ones published on the IMSI website.

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* June 20, 2016, 02:19:50 AM
#33
Hi Andy,

Sorry, I didn't know about the pricing thing?
No problems!

I tried the 3D Subtract again just now & now it works, this happens frequently, it works then doesn't, I find it an intermittent problem.

I have attached the drawing of the part & as you say in this case there are in fact differing edges, but it works sometimes then not at other times?

Cheers
David

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* June 20, 2016, 03:35:55 AM
#34
Exactly I do not understand the problems here in the thread, but I put a few insights:

1. When modeling is always better to use 3D solids and not surfaces (and all object must by same).
2. While sweep : is better not delete "guide" polylines. Part tree always on.
3. Frequent problem by sweep : "guide" polylines are not really closed. Or two or more nodes of the polyline ar at the same point. This problem is really a lot !!!
4. Fillets must be realistic. TC makes somtimes unrealistic fillets and other modifications. But then the object can not be further modified
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 03:55:03 AM by mpavelek »

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* June 20, 2016, 12:27:51 PM
#35
Hi mpavelek,

Unfortunately the Deluxe version only uses Surfaces & not Solids.

Why does the Part Tree need to be always on, does it make a difference somehow ?

Cheers
David

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June 20, 2016, 01:00:03 PM
#36
Why does the Part Tree need to be always on, does it make a difference somehow ?

The Part Tree does not always need to be on.  However, if it is, then for some 3D objects that are created from a 2D object, a deletion of said 2D object will cause problems.

There are two solutions:
1) Select the 3D object and Explode it to an ACIS Solid (as shown by the Selection Info panel) so that it has no History (i.e. no dependence on other objects).
2) Hide the 2D objects that were used as a frame for creating the 3D object by placing them on an invisible layer.

Jeff
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 05:51:48 PM by Jeffin90620 »

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* June 20, 2016, 01:35:00 PM
#37
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the reply on this, I see what you are saying.

Thanks Again

Cheers
David

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