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Question for Henry :- Heat Exchanger Dam
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* December 19, 2009, 03:05:35 PM
Hello Henry, with global warming and energy conservation being the order of the day, I have set about developing a few conceptual designs around this topic. My idea is a Dam whose top section contains a series of plate heat exhangers absorbing the heat from the top few meters of river water and the water that passes through would also then drop down to the water turbines below. The main feed through the exchanger boxes would also come from the top few metres of river water also. This concept is only really feasible in hotter countries where the suface water would reach certain temperatures on a regular basis.

A Few Questions:-

(1) Have you ever seen this type of concept used before ??.
(2) Any ideas on feasibility of such a construction ??.


 Any links to Dam projects either past or present would be of great assistance !.

Here is the first rough idea, as an image.


Mike Geraghty.



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* December 19, 2009, 03:34:47 PM
#1
Hello Henry, with global warming and energy conservation being the order of the day, I have set about developing a few conceptual designs around this topic. My idea is a Dam whose top section contains a series of plate heat exhangers absorbing the heat from the top few meters of river water and the water that passes through would also then drop down to the water turbines below. The main feed through the exchanger boxes would also come from the top few metres of river water also. This concept is only really feasible in hotter countries where the suface water would reach certain temperatures on a regular basis.

A Few Questions:-

(1) Have you ever seen this type of concept used before ??.
(2) Any ideas on feasibility of such a construction ??.


 Any links to Dam projects either past or present would be of great assistance !.

Here is the first rough idea, as an image.


Mike Geraghty.



What happens to the heat absorbed from the warm surface water? What absorbs it?

Henry H

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* December 19, 2009, 04:22:43 PM
#2
Hello Henry, the river water intake on the left, would be connected to a series of plate heat exchangers along its length and would exit on the right  to go to a steam turbine, or other heat recovery secondary system using highly expansive molecule in relation to heat input( The particular molecule in question evades me at the moment, but is a variant of isopropanol). The inlets through the dam would pass through the heat exhangers and out the other side to be re-used when it drops down to the water turbines below.
This idea is only conceptual at present, but the concept is intended as an addition to existing Dam structures also.


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* December 19, 2009, 05:25:15 PM
#3

(1) Have you ever seen this type of concept used before ??.
(2) Any ideas on feasibility of such a construction ??.

Afraid that's not my field, Mike, so I'll have to answer NO to both of your questions. I did run a very rough number based on guesswork flow rates and temperatures, using very elementary thermodynamics, and I didn't see that your concept violates any natural laws ;-)

Henry H

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* December 19, 2009, 05:51:13 PM
#4
Many thanks for your assistance Henry . I have only pushed the idea around for a few days, and already am discovering new possibilities with the idea.

(1) The exiting water would have a lower temperature which is an advantage in hot countries as it also lowers the evaporation rate.
(2)As temperatures soar with global warming, some of the species of fish will fall outside their comfort zone (lower downstrem temperatures an advantage).
(3)A refrigeration system could also be employed with the same kind of methodology.


Mike Geraghty.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 06:02:03 PM by Michael Geraghty »

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* December 20, 2009, 10:50:41 PM
#5
A little bit further along the line Henry, I have a long way to go in relation to creating the proper river terrain , but just shown now with a little bit of extra surroundings. Proportions of Dam structure are as yet totally out of proportion, but will adjust later. My major task just now is creating  realistic water jets from the outlets down to the water in turbocad, even though I intend to run the outlets to header and then down to a smaller  secondary turbine .

Day 2 and it is starting to take shape as a concept .



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* December 21, 2009, 01:55:12 AM
#6
...  to go to a steam turbine, or other heat recovery secondary system using highly expansive molecule in relation to heat input...

Hi Michael,
I hope you don't me asking, is this the technology here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_thermal_energy_conversion#Work_principles

Quote
Closed-cycle systems use fluid with a low boiling point, such as ammonia, to rotate a turbine to generate electricity. Warm surface seawater is pumped through a heat exchanger where the low-boiling-point fluid is vaporized. The expanding vapor turns the turbo-generator. Then, cold, deep seawater—pumped through a second heat exchanger—condenses the vapor back into a liquid, which is then recycled through the system.

Fascinating subject.
Regards,
Paul.

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* December 22, 2009, 07:29:47 AM
#7
Hello Paul, this is one of a number of potential methods that can be used , and I appreciate the link to this article. At present, I am just looking at the potential of using various methods and weighing up the pros and cons of the different systems.

I am also looking into the most expansive molecule  in relation to heat input, one which is a variant of isopropanol or better, but have a bit of reading up to do yet as new products are being developed all the time.

Also the alternative systems that can be employed for refrigeration from similar processes.

Absorption Cooling Article Link
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 07:32:58 AM by Michael Geraghty »

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* December 22, 2009, 10:28:31 AM
#8
Also the alternative systems that can be employed for refrigeration from similar processes.

Absorption Cooling Article Link

Absorption cooling is quite marvelous, IMO. More than seventy years ago, my great-aunts, spinsters living in a farmhouse with no electricity, had such a refrigerator powered solely by a kerosene flame. It worked silently and flawlessly and produced wonderful homemade ice cream :-)

Henry H

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* December 25, 2009, 01:18:31 PM
#9
Also the alternative systems that can be employed for refrigeration from similar processes.

Absorption Cooling Article Link

Absorption cooling is quite marvelous, IMO. More than seventy years ago, my great-aunts, spinsters living in a farmhouse with no electricity, had such a refrigerator powered solely by a kerosene flame. It worked silently and flawlessly and produced wonderful homemade ice cream :-)

Henry H


Surprising how good the innovations of the past were Henry, this is a very good example . Just think how many  inventions are lying in the patent offices that never came into existence because of funding, pity a country cannot take out a patent on behalf of it's citizens. If a country provided free patent cover, then more wealth would be created compared to income of patent offices, and also ordinary people would not expend large amounts of time and fighting uphill to develop their ideas. Just like standards  Henry, why should you have to pay for standards material  that a country wants you to comply with. If standards were free to access online, then more people would actually apply them.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 01:25:43 PM by Michael Geraghty »

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* December 25, 2009, 03:25:44 PM
#10
..... pity a country cannot take out a patent on behalf of it's citizens. If a country provided free patent cover, then more wealth would be created compared to income of patent offices, and also ordinary people would not expend large amounts of time and fighting uphill to develop their ideas.

The Chinese have provision for patents to be supported financially by the state.  As a concept, it's very appealing.  Practically, it's probably as open to abuse as every other.  Who controls it, how is benefit apportioned, who decides what's worthy of a supported application?  It wasn't so very long ago that the US opposed China's entry to the WTO because the US considered that China's policing of patent and copyright protection was inadequate.

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* December 26, 2009, 06:04:54 PM
#11
Very interesting Murray, I did not know that China funded patents. Maybe we should have a cut down test or trial of the process if not the full blown implementation to see if there are any viable variations on this process.

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* December 26, 2009, 07:43:31 PM
#12
The majority of countries are signatories to the US-inspired Digital Millenium Copyright Agreement, which imposes copyright terms and durations determined by the US Congress onto signatory nations.   Copyright can be claimed at almost no cost,  effective in many countries, with no search for possible plagiarism or penalty for simply retelling the same story if the arrangement of words is different,  nor does "prior art" prevent copyright.  Yet a novel invention would have to have individual protection applied for, with searches, in 146 countries to be comprehensive, with a much higher standard of novelty and innovation necessary.   A treaty giving equal weight to a US patent in Europe, or a European patent in the US, or either in China, without having to lodge another patent in each foreign market makes far more sense to me.  Most of the expense is in the duplication of applications, and searches in each case. 

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* September 18, 2011, 07:16:11 PM
#13
Hello Paul, this is one of a number of potential methods that can be used , and I appreciate the link to this article. At present, I am just looking at the potential of using various methods and weighing up the pros and cons of the different systems.

I am also looking into the most expansive molecule  in relation to heat input, one which is a variant of isopropanol or better, but have a bit of reading up to do yet as new products are being developed all the time.

Also the alternative systems that can be employed for refrigeration from similar processes.

Absorption Cooling Article Link

I came up with a better version of the expansive molecule on this one Henry, the use of Methane Hydrates, that would expand to 128 times the volume on application of heat, and then condensed after going through the upper Heat exchanger system and turbine, to be cooled with a refrigeration exchanger setup at the bottom of the dam.

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