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Frustrated with faceted arcs and segmented curves
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February 07, 2015, 09:24:10 AM
Hello,
I am running TC Pro 20.2 64 bit
I have been struggling with a couple of problems that so far appear to be unsolvable.
I am at the point where I need some solid answers.
I am writing a series of articles for 360-Woodworking about what I call Precision Woodworking.
http://360woodworking.com/article/precision-woodworking/
 Coming up, I have planned a more in-depth article on CAD. If TurboCad cannot do what I require it to do -  I need find a CAD program that will and quickly.

What really frustrates me is a seemingly lack of documentation.  There are lots of things that are simply not explained. Posting to the forum sometimes gets an answer (thanks to all who have helped me in that regard). The answers have yet to fully solve the problem of faceted arcs though.
I have played around with various settings  under the “Options” menu
Under “Native Draw” I clicked “GDI
Then under  ACIS – I have tried numerous things not knowing what it all means. What values should be entered in the custom settings ? No one has a better answer than a guess. No documentation on this either.
I have been able to improve the facet problem but not remove it entirely – In fact, in some instances,  the facets have shown up in my CNC tool path!
Now another problem has developed . I have not used  the commands under “Curve”  ( splines and Bezier) much in the past. This last week I had the need to use these commands.  Much of what I draw is turned into tool path for my CNC machine. The curves created by these lines had so many segments that the resulting lines of code  (to maneuver just a short distance) faulted my machine. 
Stabbing in the dark, I played with “convert to curve” and “convert to arc polyline” Using one of these commands by itself  didn’t appear to significantly reduce the number of segmented lines. But  1st ‘converting to curve” followed by “convert to arc polyline” reduced greatly the segments ,but in the process also changed the shape of the curve slightly. The pieces were meant to tightly mate together  and the small discrepancy in shape prevented that.
Sorry for the long winded post here but my question is this….
Is there a place to get definitive  solutions to my problems with TC.
Also - I have friends who have highly recommend Rhino-CAD. Does anyone out there have comparative experience.

Thanks,
Darrell



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* February 07, 2015, 01:58:51 PM
#1
Hello,
I am running TC Pro 20.2 64 bit
I have been struggling with a couple of problems that so far appear to be unsolvable.
I am at the point where I need some solid answers.
I am writing a series of articles for 360-Woodworking about what I call Precision Woodworking.
http://360woodworking.com/article/precision-woodworking/
 Coming up, I have planned a more in-depth article on CAD. If TurboCad cannot do what I require it to do -  I need find a CAD program that will and quickly.

What really frustrates me is a seemingly lack of documentation.  There are lots of things that are simply not explained. Posting to the forum sometimes gets an answer (thanks to all who have helped me in that regard). The answers have yet to fully solve the problem of faceted arcs though.
I have played around with various settings  under the “Options” menu
Under “Native Draw” I clicked “GDI
Then under  ACIS – I have tried numerous things not knowing what it all means. What values should be entered in the custom settings ? No one has a better answer than a guess. No documentation on this either.
I have been able to improve the facet problem but not remove it entirely – In fact, in some instances,  the facets have shown up in my CNC tool path!
Now another problem has developed . I have not used  the commands under “Curve”  ( splines and Bezier) much in the past. This last week I had the need to use these commands.  Much of what I draw is turned into tool path for my CNC machine. The curves created by these lines had so many segments that the resulting lines of code  (to maneuver just a short distance) faulted my machine. 
Stabbing in the dark, I played with “convert to curve” and “convert to arc polyline” Using one of these commands by itself  didn’t appear to significantly reduce the number of segmented lines. But  1st ‘converting to curve” followed by “convert to arc polyline” reduced greatly the segments ,but in the process also changed the shape of the curve slightly. The pieces were meant to tightly mate together  and the small discrepancy in shape prevented that.
Sorry for the long winded post here but my question is this….
Is there a place to get definitive  solutions to my problems with TC.
Also - I have friends who have highly recommend Rhino-CAD. Does anyone out there have comparative experience.

Thanks,
Darrell

Darrell,

Why not post the file that's a concern, it'll be easier to see what the problem is.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 09:23:57 PM by DonCW »

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DonCW

2017 Platinum
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There's so much to learn and not much time left to learn it.


February 08, 2015, 08:51:12 AM
#2
Thanks Don,
There are a couple of problems here, but they all  revolve around how TC deals with curves and arcs.
I have attached a TC file and an jpg image of a drawing with facets that I cannot get rid of. When I zoom in on the arc in TC the facets go away. When I print or export the drawing to jpg the facets are always there. I know they are not actually there ( I hope) but I should not have to explain this to a client.

I have also attached screen shots of my settings for "ACIS" and "Native Draw"  I am not sure what a lot of this means - especially the ACIS values under "Custom Faceter Parameters"

I did not upload a file pertaining to  the problem of the  curved lines ( splines - bezier). Is there a way to draw these so they do not have so many small lines that it presents problems for my CNC tool path? Also - when manipulating these lines they sometimes change shape slightly - enough so that  the resulting parts I cut out have small gaps. Is there something to avoid that cause this.
thanks,
Darrell

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February 08, 2015, 09:14:08 AM
#3
I had this same trouble when I was designing headboards for a client in the bed manufacturing industry. It was very frustrating. I found that just adjusting one of the fields worked well enough.


February 08, 2015, 10:26:52 AM
#4
Thanks Don!
I will try that.
Darrell

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* February 08, 2015, 02:31:33 PM
#5
Darrell,
see attachment. I "insert arc" on the polyline. "Insert  arc" is in the right click local menu.
Also, if you're exporting a dxf or dwg file that will be viewed in Autocad, AC has an arc/circle smoothness setting. 1000 is good.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 02:49:42 PM by Dean »

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21.Using Lightworks and Redsdk, Anilab lab 5. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100 and HP all in one desktop with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3


February 10, 2015, 12:05:23 PM
#6
Thanks Dean - that's a good trick to know!

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* February 10, 2015, 02:04:57 PM
#7
If this is 2D Darrell, it really seems to me to be more of a video-card/driver, monitor screen-resolution, etc. type of thing.
Which also would explain the issue when they are saved/viewed as an image file (.jpg; .png, etc.; raster-images)

As far as them (if this is 2D, I'm going to call them "jaggies", rather than "facets") also appearing when printing, likewise-- again, if these are 2D-- I would tend to lean towards it being printing-machine-quality issue (dpi).  As in, if you sent it off to a professional printing-company using a high-resolution printer-- like 300dpi or better-- the jaggies wouldn't show up in the print (or at least, be less, depending on the arc, spline, curve, etc.).  And when I say "sent it off", I don't mean as a .jpg or other raster-based format-- via a good .pdf-writer, or directly to their printer-driver.

Same with the CNC machine.  If you have a really slight curve or arc, it's gotta be tough on that machine to say "okay, I'm going up this slight amount, and to the right this slight amount; repeat...".  But the higher-end the machine, I have to assume the better job it can do at that.

I come across this in my work.  What displays as jaggie on my low-end computer/monitor (slight curves/arcs, and lines at slight angles), most often prints looking pretty good when I send it to our largest-in-town/main "blueprint" printing-company, via .pdf.  (I guess my .pdf-writing program writes/stores the vector information).

Using your "facets.jpg" to trace over, on my inexpensive laptop (specs below; 17.3"/1600x900 native resolution) I don't get anywhere near the "flat spots" in my arcs as your "facets.jpg" shows.  But I do get some, though I tend to think of them as jaggies... a limitation in what my video-card/driver and monitor-screen can display.

For what that's worth; if you're talking 3D, then not much; then it would be correct to go after some of these faceting issues.

~Alvin

[I'm not a computer-guy, so I might have gotten some of that wrong.  I hope others will bring to our attention my errors.]

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


February 10, 2015, 02:24:16 PM
#8
Thanks Alvin,

I do not think the problem has been with my printer or CNC. My printer is capable of 300 dpi and my CNC is a mid-range  but capable of easily following even the tightest arc. My problem seems to be random - some drawings have no problems at all while other drawing will have only certain arcs that are jagged.

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* February 10, 2015, 02:54:36 PM
#9
Thanks Alvin,

I do not think the problem has been with my printer or CNC. My printer is capable of 300 dpi and my CNC is a mid-range  but capable of easily following even the tightest arc. My problem seems to be random - some drawings have no problems at all while other drawing will have only certain arcs that are jagged.

So you are talking 2D?  I know nothing...  your CNC machine uses 2D for the paths?

Just curious, in case this thread continues, or you post again about the jaggies(2D) or facets(3D).

(still, it's a curious thing that my arcs-- be they Polyline-arcs or via the Arc tool-- don't display anywhere near as flat as your "facets.jpg" did)

-Alvin

By the way:  Read through your 360Woodworking article.  Cool stuff.  Real quality and precision.  I missed my calling when I non-purposefully became a framing-carpenter; they say that we "don't build the piano; just the box it comes in".

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* February 10, 2015, 05:18:58 PM
#10
Thanks Don,
There are a couple of problems here, but they all  revolve around how TC deals with curves and arcs.
I have attached a TC file and an jpg image of a drawing with facets that I cannot get rid of. When I zoom in on the arc in TC the facets go away. When I print or export the drawing to jpg the facets are always there. I know they are not actually there ( I hope) but I should not have to explain this to a client.

Darrell

Hi Darrell,

FWIW... I exploded the bottom rail profile which 3 arcs and lines. From there I created a closed polyline shown in Blue, it was  copied to the side and extruded. A selected ISO view shows 3 proper arcs and the printed copy looks good. Please let me know if this helps.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 06:22:13 PM by DonCW »

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DonCW

2017 Platinum
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There's so much to learn and not much time left to learn it.


February 10, 2015, 06:03:19 PM
#11
Alvin,
Sorry - I did not give you all the info. I am drawing entirely in 2D and only using 2D on my CNC.

I am beginning to suspect that my program is corrupt again. I have had other problems that pop up from time to time.  It starts with certain snap functions not working - other problems start popping up as well. I wonder if the problems I am having with arcs is related ?
I have solved this in the past by either reloading the program or inserting the disc and choosing "repair". This has happened about 3 or 4 times now. - Is this normal to have to reload TC on a regular basis?

Don - thanks for the file but I think it is the wrong drawing - it doesn't seem to relate to your posting.

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* February 10, 2015, 06:21:49 PM
#12
Alvin,
...
- Is this normal to have to reload TC on a regular basis?
...

"Normal"?  I don't know I would say it's normal.

But, for as long as I have used TurboCAD (off&on and part-time for 15 years), I have often had to do Re-Installs, Repairs, and/or Built-in Folder rebuilds.
Maybe, on average, a couple of times a year.

(and I have always had jaggies)... through 4 or 5 computers)
(I want to add a post on my jaggies-theory, which I think is accurate; but I'll wait until you or someone else asks for it.  I've posted it before once or twice.)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 06:52:21 PM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* February 10, 2015, 06:25:02 PM
#13
Alvin,
Sorry - I did not give you all the info. I am drawing entirely in 2D and only using 2D on my CNC.

I am beginning to suspect that my program is corrupt again. I have had other problems that pop up from time to time.  It starts with certain snap functions not working - other problems start popping up as well. I wonder if the problems I am having with arcs is related ?
I have solved this in the past by either reloading the program or inserting the disc and choosing "repair". This has happened about 3 or 4 times now. - Is this normal to have to reload TC on a regular basis?

Don - thanks for the file but I think it is the wrong drawing - it doesn't seem to relate to your posting.

Sorry Darrell,

See my original post with corrected attachment.

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DonCW

2017 Platinum
Light Works Plug in
Windows 10
There's so much to learn and not much time left to learn it.


February 11, 2015, 04:29:29 AM
#14
Thanks Don - I am not sure if I follow the process you laid out but simply exploding the polylines removed the facet problem.
Alvin - I will do a search for your past posts on jaggies.
thanks,
Darrell

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* February 11, 2015, 06:53:37 AM
#15
...
Alvin - I will do a search for your past posts on jaggies.
thanks,
Darrell

"Jaggies".  Just think about it in a common-sense, physical way.  Our screens are made up of pixels.  Rectangles.  I think they are squares, but they may not be.
Things-- such as a Line, a Curve, or an Arc, or even this text-- are displayed on our screens via assigning color to these pixels.  In a typical classic TurboCAD, they would all be set to display White, until told otherwise.

So you insert a Black Line.  It's ____ long, at 0°.  Fine, the screen can handle that; depending on it's Pen-Width value, the screen assigns to one-or-more rows of pixels, the "command" to display Black.

But what if you rotate that Line 1°, and Zoom-Extents so that it runs the full-length, east-to-west, of your TurboCAD desktop.  That's a tough assignment for the screen, but it accommodates.  Using these 1600-columns and 900-rows of pixels, how is it going to accurately-as-possible display this very slightly askew Line?  The screen says, "well, every pixel the Line "touches", I will assign it to be Black.  So that may be a few on one Row-of-pixels, than up, and a few on the next-Row-of-Pixels, and so on.

The same with slight Arcs, Curves, and the like.

When we Zoom in real close, there is less angle of that Line being represented on the screen; hence, the screen is assigning more portion of Rows/Columns-of-Pixels to Black, before it moves up and assigns other portions of Rows/Columns-Pixels to display Black.  The result-- as observed by the User-- is what appears to be smoother... less jaggies.

I hope that begins the making sense of it-- the ability to grasp it.

I ask that the more computery-folks clarify any errors, omissions, or over-simplifications I may have made.

~Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


February 11, 2015, 07:54:39 AM
#16
Alvin,
I don't think my problem has been with pixels. I get jagged edges all the time that do not show up in a print or .jpg or even my CNC tool path.
What I have been getting is larger than jagged edges - thats why I called them "facets". Its random and only happens on some arcs. Don's last suggestion had me explode the polyline (which the facet was part of) as soon as I did that, the arc evened out. 

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* February 11, 2015, 09:02:25 AM
#17
Alvin,
I don't think my problem has been with pixels. I get jagged edges all the time that do not show up in a print or .jpg or even my CNC tool path.
What I have been getting is larger than jagged edges - thats why I called them "facets". Its random and only happens on some arcs. Don's last suggestion had me explode the polyline (which the facet was part of) as soon as I did that, the arc evened out.

[Below is stricken-out because I just re-read Darrell's post, quoted above, and now notice that he reports "I get jagged edges all the time that do not show up in a print or .jpg or even my CNC tool path."  (emphasis mine- AG)  --I had mis-read that previously.]

Yeah, like I was saying in a previous post, it's interesting and curious that when I trace over your screen-capture image with a Polyline (with only a single Arc segment for the middle-arcs) I don't get nearly the flat spots (what you are referring to as "facets", I think) as appears in your screen-capture.

It's beyond me...


-Alvin
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 02:09:05 PM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* February 11, 2015, 09:58:53 AM
#18
Alvin,
I don't think my problem has been with pixels. I get jagged edges all the time that do not show up in a print or .jpg or even my CNC tool path.
What I have been getting is larger than jagged edges - thats why I called them "facets". Its random and only happens on some arcs. Don's last suggestion had me explode the polyline (which the facet was part of) as soon as I did that, the arc evened out.

Yeah, like I was saying in a previous post, it's interesting and curious that when I trace over your screen-capture image with a Polyline (with only a single Arc segment for the middle-arcs) I don't get nearly the flat spots (what you are referring to as "facets", I think) as appears in your screen-capture.

It's beyond me...


-Alvin

I take that back.  At a certain zoom-level, I do get that "flat spot" in the middle of the center/large arcs.

I am convinced it is the "pixel"-thing I went into detail about [the "jaggies" theory dissertation  :D].   And my hunch is that the root-cause of the "jaggies" is the same root cause of any printing or CNC use:  The arc or curve is too slight, and causes both machines issues, the same as the monitor-screen.  At least, what I am experiencing.  Since you, Darrell, are reporting it in prints and the CNC path, the cause of what you are experiencing is likely something else-- or something additional (could be two separate "issues").

Can you tell us about your monitor and video card Darrell?

-Alvin
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 03:01:24 PM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


February 11, 2015, 11:26:08 AM
#19
My Video Card is  Intel HD Graphics 4000

I use two different moniters - same problem with both:

My laptops monitor has a  1366 x 766 resolution
My 2nd screen has a resolution of 1920 X 1080

Darrell

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* August 12, 2016, 07:59:03 AM
#20
I have used various versions of TurboCAD for many years, and have experienced the same issues.  It has nothing to do with screen resolution or printer resolution... TC does actually change arcs into segmented polylines, for some reason.  I have found ways around this, but even these ways can be frustrating when trying to generate CNC tool paths for milling machines and/or routers.

Let's say that I'm connecting an arc to a line, using the 2Dfillet tool.  By default, the tool wants to join the entities into a single entity... and that is when TC takes your arc and turns it into a segmented polyline.  In order to avoid this, click the "Fillet to collection of lines and arcs" button... which disables the default "Join to single polyline" option and will keep your arcs correct.

I've found no way to actually connect lines with arcs, without the arcs becoming segmented.  Both the "Join polyline" tool and the "Chain polyline" tool will chop your arcs into tiny segments... and then your CNC machine will not use true G02 or G03 arcs, but will use an array of G01 linear movements that result in rather choppy-looking arcs.   

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* August 12, 2016, 10:21:57 AM
#21
I have used various versions of TurboCAD for many years, and have experienced the same issues.  It has nothing to do with screen resolution or printer resolution... TC does actually change arcs into segmented polylines, for some reason.  I have found ways around this, but even these ways can be frustrating when trying to generate CNC tool paths for milling machines and/or routers.

Let's say that I'm connecting an arc to a line, using the 2Dfillet tool.  By default, the tool wants to join the entities into a single entity... and that is when TC takes your arc and turns it into a segmented polyline.  In order to avoid this, click the "Fillet to collection of lines and arcs" button... which disables the default "Join to single polyline" option and will keep your arcs correct.

I've found no way to actually connect lines with arcs, without the arcs becoming segmented. Both the "Join polyline" tool and the "Chain polyline" tool will chop your arcs into tiny segments... and then your CNC machine will not use true G02 or G03 arcs, but will use an array of G01 linear movements that result in rather choppy-looking arcs.   

If you create a Polyline with arcs included in it, the arcs will be smooth. And they will remain smooth if you edit the Polyline after drawing it.

Henry H

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February 02, 2018, 06:56:48 AM
#22
I have been experiencing similar problems for some time which is also very frustrating. I build guitars with CNC and the biggest problem I encountered with arcs faceting was when constructing the 2D outline of a pickguard by Boolean addition and subtraction of polylines, circles and ellipses. This results in a 2D region.

I used to run TC V19.2 Pro Platinum and I recently upgraded to TC 2016 Professional. I hoped that this issue would have been resolved but it evidently hasn't.

I have tried altering the RedSDK settings and various other things as suggested in a number of other threads. Does anyone have an explanation or simple workaround for this behavious? I suppose that I could edit the elliptical arc to be an arc segment and then join it to a polyline but this seems to make a mockery of the very nifty 2D/3D Boolean add/subtract functions which otherwise have served me extremely well.

See my attached example file TEST.tcw which illustrates the problem. Subtract the polyline from the ellipse and look at the resulting 2D region: no matter what I do, it is heavily faceted.

Interestingly, if I explode the resultant 2D region to a line and arc segment the arc segment is smooth. If I then join them up again, the faceting returns! This is definitely not a display issue because, as I was dismayed to find, the exported 3D object when given a simple depth to the 2D region retains the faceting through to the STL file and manifests itself in the actual 3D toolpath!

Regards.

Doug
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 06:59:01 AM by 9dms9 »

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* February 02, 2018, 08:52:56 AM
#23
" If I then join them up again, the faceting returns!"

Don't join them, and don't bother to create a Region. Extrude with "Use compound profile" enabled.

Henry H

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February 02, 2018, 09:21:41 AM
#24
" If I then join them up again, the faceting returns!"

Don't join them, and don't bother to create a Region. Extrude with "Use compound profile" enabled.

Henry H
Thanks Henry.

I'm afraid that I don't follow why you are suggesting that I avoid creating a 2D or 3D region. That is the simplest method for me to create the complex shapes I want using 2D or 3D Boolean operations from simple polygons, circles and ellipses (see YouTube video below).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqwIQAOdJ30

My question is why does the creation of a simple 2D region from a simple 2D polyline and an ellipse or circle changes a smooth arc to a faceted one? Are you saying that this is a 'feature' of TurboCAD and I must work around it in this case? It worked on many other instances in my project including the guitar body example in the video; none of the arcs on the final shape are noticeably faceted.

If I create 3D objects from the polyline and ellipse by either adding depth or doing a simple extrude as you suggest and then I carry out a 3D Boolean subtract operation the resulting object is still noticeably faceted but with much finer facets. I have to zoom in to around 1:10 scale to discern them.

Doug
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 09:29:20 AM by 9dms9 »

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* February 02, 2018, 09:30:46 AM
#25
Hi Doug,
I'm curious, why not use the "trim" tool and why do you need to join them?

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21.Using Lightworks and Redsdk, Anilab lab 5. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100 and HP all in one desktop with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3


February 02, 2018, 09:36:20 AM
#26
Hi Doug,
I'm curious, why not use the "trim" tool and why do you need to join them?
I just tried the trim tool with the TEST.tcw file I posted earlier and it yields an open arc segment. This could be joined with other arcs and line segments but creating 2D and 3D regions seems like a simple and logical enough strategy so that's what I choose. No other reason.  :)

The objects must be joined in order to export them as a single solid 3D object (STL being the file of choice) to the CAM software. I use MeshCAM but all CAM software (DeskProto being another popular one) requires a single solid 3D object, to my knowledge.

Doug
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 09:42:24 AM by 9dms9 »

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* February 02, 2018, 10:48:45 AM
#27
Hi Doug,
I'm curious, why not use the "trim" tool and why do you need to join them?
I just tried the trim tool with the TEST.tcw file I posted earlier and it yields an open arc segment. This could be joined with other arcs and line segments but creating 2D and 3D regions seems like a simple and logical enough strategy so that's what I choose. No other reason.  :)

The objects must be joined in order to export them as a single solid 3D object (STL being the file of choice) to the CAM software. I use MeshCAM but all CAM software (DeskProto being another popular one) requires a single solid 3D object, to my knowledge.

Doug

Right, so after the "trim" just extrude the line and arc with "compound profile" selected as Henry said,
save it as a dwg,

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21.Using Lightworks and Redsdk, Anilab lab 5. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100 and HP all in one desktop with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3


February 02, 2018, 10:54:18 AM
#28
Right, so after the "trim" just extrude the line and arc with "compound profile" selected as Henry said,
save it as a dwg.
Dean/Henry.

You're kindly providing a workaround which I will certainly try but I was looking for some insight as to why a quite logical and simple strategy of creating 2D or 3D regions (which works in most cases) sometimes changes smooth arcs to faceted ones. I have yet to see the reason for this, only different design strategies.

What is the reason for saving it as a .dwg? I want to output the object file in STL format.

Doug
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 10:56:30 AM by 9dms9 »

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* February 02, 2018, 11:22:38 AM
#29
Doug,
so save it as an Stl file.
you can adjust the ACIS faceter quality if needed,the arc information is written into the dwg or dxf 3d solid.
Test the the file in your target software.

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21.Using Lightworks and Redsdk, Anilab lab 5. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100 and HP all in one desktop with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3


February 02, 2018, 11:38:17 AM
#30
Thanks Dean.

I’ll give that a try too. To be fair, this is the only remaining glitchy part of an otherwise successful design project. TC V19.2 Pro Platinum has served me pretty well. I designed a complicated guitar neck in it and that CNC cut beautifully! :-)

Doug


February 04, 2018, 07:41:36 AM
#31
I have tried the Trim function and this too causes gross faceting of arcs. However, in the case of the Trim function, free arcs smooth out after an F5 redraw operation.

Therefore, I can only conclude that in the case of 2D regions, the F5 redraw function doesn't work properly/at all and the resulting arc faceting is locked in to the region object and cannot be smoothed out. I cannot explain why I don't see arc faceting all the time, or in some cases but not others. However, I suspect that a 2D region which is created from a closed arc (i.e. a full circle or ellipse) does not suffer faceting but any arc *segment* that is used to create a 2D region suffers faceting.

I have proven that this is not simply a display glitch (as I previously assumed), but translates through to any solid object that is created using that 2D region.

I wish I had realised this sooner and used the Trim tool in my design strategy. Thankfully, it has only manifested itself on two objects I wanted to create. In due course, I will redesign these objects using the Trim tool.

Doug
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 07:43:27 AM by 9dms9 »

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* February 04, 2018, 07:58:14 AM
#32
Have you been inside Options/ Native Draw >> Advanced and tick the box there, especially arc's. as then you should not need to do a redraw ( F5 ) in RedSDK mode if that's what you use

Torfinn

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February 04, 2018, 07:59:41 AM
#33
Have you been inside Options/ Native Draw >> Advanced and tick the box there, especially arc's. as then you should not need to do a redraw ( F5 ) in RedSDK mode if that's what you use

Torfinn
Hi Torfin.

Yes, thanks. I ticked all the options in there. That was one of several actions I took while trying to debug this issue. I sometimes still need to force a redraw with F5 though. Not sure why...

Regards.

Doug


* February 04, 2018, 08:15:34 AM
#34
You might want to consider tracing the Region with a Spline. That'll be nice and smooth, without faceting.

Henry H

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* February 04, 2018, 07:18:42 PM
#35
As Henry suggested initially, you can shift-select the un-trimmed, un-joined profiles and just extrude everything together in 2016 (back to at least v17, in fact).  You refer to 2D booleans, your profiles are closed, the entire convert-to-a-region rigmarole is work that TC development has made entirely redundant.  You say "it's simpler for me".  How can it be, since you're  insisting that TC should do something that it doesn't do?  If you're committed to adding things together, why do they have to be 2D?  3D adding individual extrusions together is the same as adding their profiles beforehand, with no faceting outcome.  You're looking for a workaround for a problem of obstinate technique.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 07:55:01 PM by murray dickinson »

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February 05, 2018, 05:47:38 AM
#36
Dear Murray.

Please find responses to your comments below:

As Henry suggested initially, you can shift-select the un-trimmed, un-joined profiles and just extrude everything together in 2016 (back to at least v17, in fact).

Yes, I got that already from Henry’s previous post. I said that I will redesign the desired object using that strategy.

You refer to 2D booleans, your profiles are closed, the entire convert-to-a-region rigmarole is work that TC development has made entirely redundant.

It is your subjective opinion that it’s a “rigmarole”. In my opinion, setting up lines to trim the 2D objects I have to draw and position anyway is only slightly less of a “rigmarole”.

You say "it's simpler for me".  How can it be, since you're insisting that TC should do something that it doesn't do?

It did what I want it to do most of the time as illustrated in the YouTube video I posted earlier. I sought an explanation why it creates faceted arcs in some circumstances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqwIQAOdJ30

If you're committed to adding things together, why do they have to be 2D?  3D adding individual extrusions together is the same as adding their profiles beforehand, with no faceting outcome.

I understand this. I also successfully used addition and subtraction of 3D objects to good effect in my guitar design (see attached renders), particularly in the case of the neck which has a complex profile curve to the back.

You're looking for a workaround for a problem of obstinate technique.

I wasn’t looking for a workaround to (in your subjective opinion) an “obstinate” technique. I applied the workaround at the CAM and physical part stages in the two cases I had problems with. I was looking for an explanation as to why one TC feature didn’t yield the desired outcome in some circumstances. Henry and others kindly suggested a workaround (or, as it transpires), a better design strategy.

I think it is better if software features work under all circumstances. If they don't, either they should be deleted or corrected. In this instance, all that the software designers would need to do to correct this problem is make it so the end result of a 2D Boolean addition or subtraction is a closed object consisting of arc segments and line segments which could then be edited node by node if required, not an uneditable region.

Regards.

Doug
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 05:50:41 AM by 9dms9 »

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February 17, 2018, 08:50:45 AM
#37
I successfully created a Fender Stratocaster pickguard outline as a polyline with smooth arcs by assembling circles and lines, trimming the circles with a line segment to yield arc segments, used Meet 2 Lines to ensure that the ends were coincident then used JoinPolyline to join up all the lines and arc segments.

All was well until I created the 3D object which became grossly faceted! I tried two methods: simply selecting the polyline and adding depth in the properties (Solid selected) and by doing a simple 2D extrusion as suggested. Both methods yielded the same grossly faceted object.

My 'obstinate' method of creating 2D regions was never this bad.  ;D

To be fair to you guys (and Murray!) it is possible for MeshCAM to create a GCode toolpath by importing the 2D outline as a DXF file and it appears to work perfectly and all curves are smooth (see attached screenshot).

http://www.grzsoftware.com/blog/how-to/dxf-to-g-code/

Doug
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 09:11:59 AM by 9dms9 »

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* February 17, 2018, 09:20:47 AM
#38
I successfully created a Fender Stratocaster pickguard outline as a polyline with smooth arcs by assembling circles and lines, trimming the circles with a line segment to yield arc segments, used Meet 2 Lines to ensure that the ends were coincident then used JoinPolyline to join up all the lines and arc segments.

All was well until I created the 3D object which became grossly faceted! I tried two methods: simply selecting the polyline and adding depth in the properties (Solid selected) and by doing a simple 2D extrusion as suggested. Both methods yielded the same grossly faceted object.

My 'obstinate' method of creating 2D regions was never this bad.  ;D

To be fair to you guys (and Murray!) it is possible for MeshCAM to create a GCode toolpath by importing the 2D outline as a DXF file and it appears to work perfectly and all curves are smooth (see attached screenshot).

http://www.grzsoftware.com/blog/how-to/dxf-to-g-code/

Doug

It isn't really faceted, Doug. You simply need to crank up the Faceter Quality (Options>ACIS).

Henry H

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February 17, 2018, 10:24:32 AM
#39
I agree with Henry. Just a matter of putting the Facetor Quality to 100%