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Newbie Questions re Rendering
Read 13524 times
* January 12, 2015, 12:06:31 PM
Hi, folks.  I'm new to the forum as of today, but have been using TurboCAD since V7.  However, I want to get into 3D printing so have downloaded V21 Deluxe for a test.  Got my first piece drawn up but am suffering from SLOW rendering.  Painfully slow in some cases.  I've done some searching but haven't found the answer to the following question - although I have found answers to other questions.

Until today I'd been using a hand-me-down laptop and assumed that was the cause of the ~10 minute Quality rendering times.  But today I loaded it on my desktop, which has an Intel i7-4770 running at 3.4 GHz and 32 Gb of memory.  Plus, it has an Nvidia GeForce GT640 graphics card.  And I still have very slow rendering.  In fact, with the foreground wireframe non-renderables turned off the laptop seems to be as fast as the desktop.   >:(

I'm guessing that I have some setting wrong, but it is painful to wait several minutes to get the drawing rendered on every change I make, so have resorted to asking the experts.   ;)  Help!  Please!?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 12:18:30 PM by Gary Lewis »

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* January 12, 2015, 12:43:46 PM
#1
It would probably help to post the file that takes too long to render.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2018
Designer, Deluxe, Expert, Basic, Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro, 64-bit


* January 12, 2015, 01:20:50 PM
#2
John - What a good idea!  I frequent Ford Truck Enthusiasts forum and attaching files isn't done there, but I can see that would be a big help here.  So, I tried attaching the file - and got the error message that it is too large.   :(  It is 6,542 Kb vs a limit of 4096.  Is there a way to compress it in TC?

But, let me explain what I've done, which may well play into what the problems are:
  • Created the octagonal plate in 3D
  • Laid out the ~1000 holes in 3D
  • Performed a 3D Boolean subtraction, which took forever on the laptop
  • Laid out the 4 pieces on the bottom in 2D out of individual lines
  • Turned each of the 4 pieces on the bottom into entities via Join Polyline
  • Selected all 4 of the pieces on the bottom and changed their 3D height to -3/8" since they were on the bottom of the plate and needed to go down
  • Performed a 3D Boolean addition of the 4 pieces to the rest
I just tried to render via Suppress Hidden Lines on my desktop and finally had to Escape out as it wasn't getting done and had the CPU's running 100% with TC getting 95%.  And, when it failed it said there wasn't enough memory.   Really?  Out of 32 gig?  :o

And, I just tried to chamfer some of the edges and am reading that chamfering 3D entities isn't possible in Designer.  Is that right?  Do I have to start over and chamfer before doing the Boolean work?  Or, is there a way to take things apart and put them together again?

Thanks!!

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* January 12, 2015, 02:05:06 PM
#3
In "File / Save As" there's a "Setup" button that has a Compression option that will make the file smaller.
You could use something like WinZip, or in Windows Explorer you could select the drawing file, right-click, then go to "Send to / Compressed (zipped) folder".

Re: …out of memory…
Are you using V21 32-bit or 64-bit? 64-bit shouldn't run out, but it is Deluxe, so who knows….

Deluxe may not be what you want when it comes to 3D objects and editing those objects. Also, Deluxe only does TC Surface objects, so everything will be faceted from the start. You would be better off with the Pro Platinum edition that has ACIS Solid objects and many options to edit those parts.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2018
Designer, Deluxe, Expert, Basic, Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro, 64-bit


* January 12, 2015, 03:50:11 PM
#4
John - Thanks.  I've attached the compressed file.  Wow!  Down to 1/4 of the size, even with Full Precision checked.

As for the memory issue, this is the 64-bit version.  And the actual message is "There may be insufficient memory to complete rendering. Rendering was stopped."  But, it is only on the Suppress Hidden Lines render, and it does it on both the laptop as well as the desktop.  It flashes a view of the plate briefly and then computes more, then flashes, then computes.  But, again, that's only with SHL, so I won't use that.

Now, let's get to the speed of rendering in Draft and Quality modes.  Oddly enough, my laptop is now running circles around my desktop, and rendering both of those modes is quite acceptable.  But, an i5-2540 with 4 Gb of memory beats the sock off an i7 with 32 gigs and a graphics card?  So, apparently I have some setting wrong in either TC or the Nvidia graphics card.  Any suggestions?

Last, are you saying that Deluxe won't work for 3D printing?  Does "faceted" mean that it only creates faces and not solids?  Or, when fed to a 3D printer via an STL file does it create solids?  I can't afford the price tag of the Pro or Pro Platinum, so need to know if I'm wasting my time with TurboCAD - which would be a huge shame since I've used it for over a decade.   :(


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* January 13, 2015, 03:23:06 PM
#5
Considering you've got 864 holes in this plate, I don't see a Quality render getting much faster. It took 7 min 20 seconds here. I got the same flashing with Hidden Line and gave up after 15-20 minutes. It seemed to be going through each hole (row of holes?) and would take forever. Similar to when you select the part and watch the holes light up until the part is completely selected. I'm amazed you got everything subtracted. I redrew the plate in V21 Deluxe and rendering improved to 5 min 24 seconds.

I'm using an ancient Dell workstation with an Nvidia Quadro FX 4800 and I'm not fluent with today's systems.

I mentioned going to pro as other people that were doing some 3D printing complained about faceting on curved sections; this was in Pro, until they went to a custom setting (not available in Deluxe. There's really not a way around it in Deluxe. It depends on what you think is unacceptable.

re: …Chamfering…
You have to get creative in Deluxe. Extrude/Rail Sweep a profile, then Add/Subtract. The Pro edition has these tools for 3D; Chamfer Edges and Fillet Edges.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2018
Designer, Deluxe, Expert, Basic, Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro, 64-bit


* January 13, 2015, 05:01:37 PM
#6
Hi, folks.  I'm new to the forum as of today, but have been using TurboCAD since V7.  However, I want to get into 3D printing so have downloaded V21 Deluxe for a test.  Got my first piece drawn up but am suffering from SLOW rendering.  Painfully slow in some cases.  I've done some searching but haven't found the answer to the following question - although I have found answers to other questions.

Until today I'd been using a hand-me-down laptop and assumed that was the cause of the ~10 minute Quality rendering times.  But today I loaded it on my desktop, which has an Intel i7-4770 running at 3.4 GHz and 32 Gb of memory.  Plus, it has an Nvidia GeForce GT640 graphics card.  And I still have very slow rendering.  In fact, with the foreground wireframe non-renderables turned off the laptop seems to be as fast as the desktop.   >:(

I'm guessing that I have some setting wrong, but it is painful to wait several minutes to get the drawing rendered on every change I make, so have resorted to asking the experts.   ;)  Help!  Please!?

Hi Gary,
Nice drawing!
I opened your file in Deluxe 21 64 bit then saved it as an stl file then opened the stl file in deluxe > applied a material and it rendered in 20 secs.(quality render)
I think that file will pass for a 3d print. Upload the stl file to Shapeways and get some results. Most 3d printing companies now will test and or make minor fixes to the file for printing.
I agree with John, if you need more tools then go pro or platinum
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 05:05:17 PM by Dean »

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21.Using Lightworks and Redsdk, Anilab lab 5. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100


* January 13, 2015, 07:17:56 PM
#7
John - What can I say, but THANKS!  I realize you know your way around TurboCAD so drawing it probably didn't take nearly as long as it takes me, but it still had to take a while.  I'm really appreciative, and humbled.

I spend a lot of time on the Ford truck enthusiasts site and over the 5 years I've been on I've gotten to know who to trust, who'll go the second mile, etc.  So, I know how forums work.  So, to have you do that on my first thread/post/question is just ...... I can't find the words.  THANK YOU!  I will check it out and see what I can learn.

However, what you said about Deluxe and faceting concerns me, greatly.  I want very clean 3D prints, so that's a major issue.  As is the cost of Pro.  But, I've played with some other CAD programs for the last couple of days and it is frustrating to not be able to find the tool you need.  One of those is SketchUP and I just discovered that I needed a plug-in/extension to get a grid.  And, there's no mirror copy.  How can you lay out all of those holes w/o a grid and mirror copy?   :-[

So, I'm lost and confused as to which way to go......

Dean - Thanks to you as well.  I drew the plate for a buddy in FTE that also wants to get into 3DP.  And he was trying to lay out this plate with TinkerCAD, but couldn't figure out how to space the holes.  I told him it was a piece of cake in TCAD and he called my bluff.   ;D  So, I did it and sent him the STL, which he cannot open.  I'll play with John's version and see if it is better than mine.

And, by the way guys, does everyone have to verify with the characters and color of the sky?  And, how does this site know what the color of my sky is?   8)

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* January 13, 2015, 08:10:59 PM
#8
Well, would V20 Platinum 2D/3D do the job?  There's one NIB on eBay for $399, which would be doable. How would it compare to V21 Deluxe, which I'm only test-driving and have 15 days left on the clock. And, how would it compare to V21 Platinum? 

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* January 13, 2015, 09:23:10 PM
#9
re: …V20 Platinum versus V21 Deluxe.

No comparison. Get the V20 Platinum.

In the Wiki you have a TurboCAD V20 page that speaks about some of the new & improved stuff. There's a V20 Comparison Chart link that shows the four editions and what commands/tools are available in each.

V21 Platinum and V21 Comparison Chart.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2018
Designer, Deluxe, Expert, Basic, Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro, 64-bit


* January 14, 2015, 03:36:29 AM
#10
One way of getting around deluxe's faceting of curved surfaces is to use regular polygons and sections of them instead of circles and arcs for profiles for extrusions, sweeps, spins, cones and prisms, because you can specify much higher resolution (number of sides that you want your polygons to have) than TC's circular representation will give you. 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 03:43:23 AM by murray dickinson »

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* January 14, 2015, 04:55:18 AM
#11
John - I'm blown away by all the commands any of them have, much more Platinum. Wow!  When laid out like that in a chart it is overwhelming. And, when moving up from V7 (I said V6 but it is V7) like I have it is almost too much.

Anyway, V20 Platinum would do what I need to do for 3D printing?  And, give smooth curves?  I don't need all of the other capabilities, and would probably be quite happy with even an earlier version if one would do. Maybe I should tell you what I do and want to do:
  • 2D: I'm very poor at conceptualizing things. However, I have a mill and a lathe, neither CNC yesterday, so I have laid out my projects in 2D heretofore and would probably continue.
  • 3D: I'm hoping to get into 3D printing and will probably buy my own printer some day. In the interim im reading about the printers, drawing projects for others to print, and planning to join the local (Tulsa) FabLab to get some experience.  And I intend to use their 3D scanner and hope to be able to edit the output file to add features, fix omissions, etc. And, as on the plate, I want to be able to chamfer corners of projects so they are printed that way.  So, if a version does that directly rather than having to extrude a profile and then join it to a solid, or maybe subtract from a solid, I would think that would be easier & better. 
  • Environment: One thing I've learned, the hard way, is that it is much easier to learn a new way of doing things if you are in a familiar environment. So, when I fired up V21 Deluxe I was thrilled to be offered the option of using a "classic" UI instead of the new one.  So, I know where things are as it looks and feels like V7. Does V20 Platinum do that?

Murray - Thanks. I appreciate the input. But if I can get a version that gives smooth curves and chamfers edges for $400, or maybe less for an earlier version, I think I'll go that way.

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January 14, 2015, 07:04:16 AM
#12
Gary

Have you checked if your desktop has its memory properly configured.  Check with you might check with Control Panel/System and Security/System.  Surprisingly a few computer manufacturers don't do this (my 16GB machine was delivered but only 2GB was accessible). If so, the following is the way I have found to correct is:-

To speed up the boot, left click Start and type msconfig into the search. Click on the boot tab and then Advanced Options.  Click the Number of Processors radio button and select 2/4 (depending on your i7) from the pull down. Also click the Maximum Memory. Click OK to go out and reboot.

Another way to check rendering is to Google for RenderBench.exe which tests a render speeds.  My previous machine (i3 with 7GB ram) tested at 5.4 seconds while this machine tests at 0.8 sec.  my previous gave up the ghost with a 200MB file after 3 hours while this one took 8 minutes.

To me, the only real improvement between TC20 Pro and TC21 Pro is the Slice by Surface which can be really useful.  From memory TC20 also allows the "classic" UI instead of the black (probable hidden in the Tools/Workspace/UI Themes menu item.  TC Pro has tools to chamfer and curve edge solids without any fuss.  There are several "smooth" curves called splines. beziers or even 3D splines.

I currently work in 2d but draw the three perspectives which then renders into 3D models.  To get started on that I bought Textual Creations (Don Cheke) A320 Airliner tutorial which saved many month's experimentation and researching.  £D printing is way in the future for me but TC exports in STL format but I don't know if that works with printers.

I agree with your conclusion and like the rest of us. have fun.

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regards
Colin Reid
TC2017 Pro Platinum 64 bit  + LW plugin on Win10 desktop and  Quad Intel i7 with 32GB RAM + 128GB  SSD and 2TB partitioned hard disk, NVidia 2GB video


* January 14, 2015, 08:35:11 AM
#13
Colin - My desktop shows it has 32 gig.  But it doesn't want to run Renderbench as it says it is not safe, so I guess I'll pass on that.  Thanks anyway.

And, glad to learn that V20 provides the classic UI.  I don't want to start over.  So, it is sounding like the $400 V20 Platinum would do well.  Would an even older version do as well since that would save a few $'s?

And, by the way, you are obviously in the UK.  Looks like you hit Shift when you were gonna type the "3" of 3D and got the Pound Sterling sign.  So I looked at your profile - way out west.  Haven't been to Monmouth but have been to Cardiff & Bath.  Lived just inside the M25 in Watford for a couple of years and have traveled a bit.

Thanks again.  Oh yes, does everyone have to "verify" with the characters and color-of-the-sky questions?  Or, is it because I'm a newbie?

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January 15, 2015, 04:38:45 AM
#14
Does the system show how much memory is usable as mine sais it had 16GB but only 2GB was usable.  Try running Renderbench in Win7 mode (it works on this machine and not caused problems.)

Go for the highest version you can afford or check the difference between the versions (IMSI site or wiki?) and see if the differences are worth the extra to you

I gave travelling when I moved to Monmouth 10 years ago (18 years overseas all over).  Typing (non touch type) due to extreme age and stupidity.

Never seen the verify or sky colours questions so I suspect your guess is right.

Just remember that, as you swear at the sometimes obtuse helpfile, this forum quickly answers queries and there are some gurus who seem to know most things.  If not, they go away and try and solve it, especially if you post a file to illustrate the problem.

One of the first tricks I learnt was to set up my own configuration of buttons and toolbars around a portrait setting (see attachment) using those buttons I use the most and remember to save them as every upgrade to TC wipes out what you have modified and resets to their defaults (yes, including the UI theme).

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regards
Colin Reid
TC2017 Pro Platinum 64 bit  + LW plugin on Win10 desktop and  Quad Intel i7 with 32GB RAM + 128GB  SSD and 2TB partitioned hard disk, NVidia 2GB video


* January 15, 2015, 05:05:14 AM
#15
Colin - Thanks.  I'll check out the Wiki to see what the version differences are.  But, I downloaded the V21 Platinum version yesterday on trial and so far like what I see.  And, it renders much faster than Deluxe.  However, I don't intend to keep it, but am just using it to verify that Platinum can do what I want/need to do.  If so I'll probably by V20.

Help file?  Yes, it is obtuse.  I find just searching the internet to be much more helpful.  And, there are you guys, who have been extremely helpful.  However, the internet lets me sort out the small problems and then bring the big ones to you.

And, speaking of that, saving the button/toolbar setup is the very next question.  I thought I knew how, but it isn't working for me now.  So, how do you do it?

Extreme old age?  I'm 67, so surely you aren't older than that?  But, I am trying to keep my mind nimble so am wanting to keep learning - things like 3D printing, which requires 3D CAD.

Thanks!

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* January 15, 2015, 05:25:32 AM
#16

Thanks again.  Oh yes, does everyone have to "verify" with the characters and color-of-the-sky questions?  Or, is it because I'm a newbie?

The verify is only the first 20 or 25 times, nearly there :)

Torfinn

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V18, V19, V20, V21, 2015/ 16/ 17/ 18 Pro. Platinum
Deluxe V20, V21, 2015/ 16/ 17
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Home Premium 64 bit, 32 GB
NVIDIA Geforce GTX 780m, 1 GB


* January 15, 2015, 09:10:41 AM
#17

Thanks again.  Oh yes, does everyone have to "verify" with the characters and color-of-the-sky questions?  Or, is it because I'm a newbie?

The verify is only the first 20 or 25 times, nearly there :)

Torfinn

Thanks for that encouragement.  Guess I need to post more.   :)

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* January 15, 2015, 03:22:59 PM
#18
I made some progress, but need some help.  Using V21 Platinum I converted the dash plate, the one that John created with some mod's of mine, to a solid.  (It took 1 hr 17 minutes and used 17% of the 4 CPU's and 5 gig of memory.)  But, I can't get the chamfering to go.  I select 3D chamfering, then select the plate and see the blue squares plus the command to select an edge.  But, I can't select an edge and, therefore, can't get the squares to turn red.

So, what am I doing wrong?

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January 16, 2015, 05:04:37 AM
#19
Gary

If you have configure just a small part of the workspace as you want, save it in the Tools/Customize page  with a name to suit you.  That file is save to c:\ProgramData\imsidesign\turbocad\21x64\professional\turbocad professional 21x64\config (you will need to delve for the equivalent in the version you settle on).. I am not sure if it is backward compatible if you set it up in your trial version but I suspect it is.  I have added the directory to my regular backup list as each upgrade or new version reverts to IMSI's defaults.

If you click on View/Toolbars in menu you can add all sorts of tool bars to the main workspace that can then been dragged and dropped either under the menu (as I have with the circles and arcs toolbars) or to the bars either side (lines/curves et al)  I have also added a New toolbar (called - guess) to which I have dragged some icons from the Commands tab on the bottom right of my screen.  At each change I make to the screen I go back to the Tools/Optimise and save it again.  On occasions, and very unpredictably, the Inspector Bar goes walkabout or some buttons stop working.  At that point I just reload my configuration file which mostly solves problems.

I suggest you search for the small problems here in the forum rather that the whole internet.  Likely to be more focused.

On age, afraid so but with the same objective of a nimble mind.

On your latest problem, over an hour to convert sounds like something is wrong with the original.  Can only suggest you start by building you own simple plate and play with the 3D chamfering and filleting to get a feel for how they work.  I have experienced similar problems in the past sometimes solved by doing each face at a time or having to give up at I don't understand why it does not work.

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regards
Colin Reid
TC2017 Pro Platinum 64 bit  + LW plugin on Win10 desktop and  Quad Intel i7 with 32GB RAM + 128GB  SSD and 2TB partitioned hard disk, NVidia 2GB video


* January 16, 2015, 11:08:37 AM
#20
re: …I can't select an edge and, therefore, can't get the squares to turn red.

I'm not sure why you can't select. Possibly the Fillet Edges tool doesn't like the "converted" object for some reason. I redrew it in V21 Platinum and added some fillets. It took about half the time to do that than converting. I left the Part-tree intact so you can delete my 3 Fillet operations.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2018
Designer, Deluxe, Expert, Basic, Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro, 64-bit


* January 16, 2015, 02:32:59 PM
#21
Colin - I agree that I need to start on something simple and figure out chamfering.  Thanks.

John - Wow!  Again!  That's amazing.  Now if I can figure out the part tree thing....

But, I was able to apply a chamfer to my file, although it was to the wrong edge.  But, that gives me hope.  So, maybe playing with a simple file will get me there.  However, I was wondering: In previous versions, including V21 Deluxe, there was a 2D/3D selector toggle that always gave me trouble as I'd be in the wrong mode when trying to select - or use snaps it seems.  Anyway, I can't find that in V21 Platinum.  Does it exist?  Could that be why I can't select?

Thanks again, guys.  You've been a huge help and blessing.

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* January 16, 2015, 04:37:39 PM
#22
The "toggle" should in the Local Menu when the Selection tool is active. I find using the default "2D/3D Depending…" setting to be helpful (found in Selector…Properties). TurboCAD chooses the selector by the object(s) you have selected. Eliminates a lot clicking/guessing in the Local Menu. If you select both 2D & 3D objects, it uses the 3D selector.

When you have an edges selected, the program will display a preview of the chamfer when you mouseover the edge. This will give you an idea if you've picked wrong.

When you have the plate selected, it will show up as "PartTree" in the Selection Info palette. Expand the header and it shows all the things performed on it. If you right-click on a subheading, you can Delete that part from the tree. You could edit the radii for the 12 edges shown in the "Part" section in the lower, but it would be easier in this case to delete & re-chamfer. PartTree can be turned on/off through "Options / ACIS".

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2018
Designer, Deluxe, Expert, Basic, Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro, 64-bit


* January 17, 2015, 05:13:37 AM
#23
John - Thanks, yet again. That screen grab helps a bunch.

Part of my problem is that things are apparently in different places in 21 Platinum from 21 Deluxe from 7 Whatever. For example, the 2D/3D Selector. I keep thinking it is in the Inspector Bar on Platinum, but it isn't. Anyway, maybe I can find it now.

And, I will play with Part Tree to delete or modify some of the things you've done to get familiar with that. Thanks!

I'll play with it a bit this morn, but I'm going to take a tour, and probably join, FabLab in Tulsa this afternoon so won't have much time. And, once I join and take some training I'll be trying something on the 3D printer, although probably not the plate as that might take a long time. But, I want to get it sorted first. I've gotten the screw bosses on the underside, although I hadn't found the "thread" tool when I did so just have holes into which the sheet metal screws can tap. So, once I get the chamfer or fillet part done it'll be ready.

Thanks again!

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* January 17, 2015, 07:39:04 AM
#24
John - I'm still going to try beating my head against the "chamfer" wall, but here's where I am:

First, I found the Part Tree.  Thanks!  That let me easily delete my chamfer of the wrong edge, although the fact that I was able, yesterday, to finally select any edge was a big boost in hope.

Second, I don't find 2D/3D Selector toggle in my Local Menu, as shown in the first screenshot.  I see it in yours, but not only can't see it in mine but cannot find it in other menus nor the Inspector Bar.  And it just "feels" like that may be my problem with selecting.

Third, I cannot select an edge when using the chamfer tool on the plate.  The second screenshot shows what I see.  (Edit: I posted a jpg and have now added a png.)  The green circle shows the chamfer tool I'm using, and the two red circles show the magenta where I tried to select that edge.  But I've tried selecting many edges today, including the one that I was able to select and chamfer yesterday.   ???

So I'm going to create something more simple and try to chamfer it.  But, I'm posting this so maybe you, or someone, will realize what I'm doing wrong and tell me how to fix it.  And, thanks in advance!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 07:41:29 AM by Gary Lewis »

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* January 17, 2015, 09:56:12 AM
#25
I'll update this as I go so's I don't forget.  Just did this:
  • In SE Iso view I drew a 1" x 1" square
  • Double-clicked it and, in 3D properties set thickness to 1" and Create 3D Object As "Solid" and clicked OK.
  • Double-clicked it again for grins and found that it was still a TC Surface.   ???  So I set it to Solid again and clicked OK.
  • Double-clicked again and found it is a solid.
  • Clicked on the Chamfer icon, selected the cube, and tried to select an edge.  The first time I got the magenta you've-been-here marks, so I tried several more single-clicks.  Every once in a while, like every 10th click or so, I would actually select the line and get a red square, and if I hit Finish it would chamfer that edge.  But, the vast majority of the time I only get the magenta marks.
  • Tried double-clicking and sometimes it would do the chamfer and get out of the chamfer tool, as if I'd selected and hit Finish.  And, when it did I'd usually see a red square appear just before it did the chamfer.  It seems like the key is to do a single-click on an edge and then double-click the same edge.However, every once in a while it did two chamfers on the same edge, like it did a chamfer between the two clicks, and the second one did another chamfer.
So, with all of that experience on a simple object, I tried it on the plate.  But, it took several clicks and then all of a sudden I saw a red square and the screen went black - which is what happened yesterday when I finally got it to chamfer the wrong edge.  So, I'm patiently waiting the outcome of this attempt.  It worked!  But, it took a looooong time, which is gonna be painful with 8 edges to chamfer if done one at a time.  So, I tried again, this time from a Top view in Wireframe rendering, and this time the first click selected the NE edge.   :)  But the no number of single clicks on the East or SE edges worked.  However, a double-click on the SE edge appears to have worked as the screen is black and the CPU is running at 15% again but the memory usage is up to 10.8 gig for TC.  And then the computer rebooted!  So, having not saved the first chamfer I'm back to Square 1.   >:(

However, that raises another question - how do I tell either TurboCAD or my system to use more of the computer?  TC is running at a steady 15% of the CPUs and is using only 9 gig of the 32 gig memory.  So, can I increase the amount of the system it uses?  I increased the max # of threads to 20, but it is only using 14 so.....

Help!  The frustration is getting deep..........

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* January 17, 2015, 10:32:42 AM
#26
I think the root of your problem is that the plate is so dang complex. Is there any chance you could slice off a small piece, chamfer that part as required, then format it as a Block and make a whole bunch of copies?

Henry H

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* January 17, 2015, 04:01:52 PM
#27
Henry - Thanks.  But, it looks like it is either a UI problem or a DU problem.  IOW, I think there's a problem with the classic user interface on 21 Platinum, or it is a dumb user (me) problem.

I actually stumbled into the solution by downloading V21 Platinum to this laptop.  But instead of using the classic user interface I made a mistake and went with the AutoCAD user interface.  And, sure enough, there's the 2D/3D selector on the Inspector Bar.  And, right-clicking after selecting the plate shows the 2D/3D Selector.  And the attached screenshot shows it.

And, it works!  Toggling the selector allows me to select the edges just like it is supposed to work.  Unfortunately, this laptop is both slow and only has 4 gig of memory, so chamfering is taking forever.  But, it is working!

So, back to the question of how to make/allow TurboCAD to use more of my computer?  Any suggestions?

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* January 17, 2015, 09:06:17 PM
#28
In your first picture I see the icon for the Command Line tool, which means you're in the "LTE workspace". You would probably better off using TurboCAD's original "Default workspace" along with the "tc_1024x768pro_pre" workspace configuration ("Tools / Customize—›Options" page). Once you've selected the configuration, click on the "Load From" button. This is laid out very much like earlier TurboCAD's. I see that you found the Default workspace. If you click on the "Styles and Themes" button, you can switch from the Dark to the Classic interface or try one of the 'Custom' interfaces.

It looks like you're attempting to chamfer your original plate that was 'converted' to Solid. I would recommend that you toss that object as there are hundreds, upon hundreds,  of facet choices to fillet/blend. Below is what my plate look like when I select it with the Fillet Edges tool; just 2 nodes for a hole (top/bottom) and one per edge. You can use the "Hide marks" option to make it a little less intimidating.

re: …How to make TurboCAD work better…
I don't have good answer for that, other than use real "solids" from the start. Converting a 'surface' to a 'solid' brings a lot of baggage with it and will probably slow things down. The complexity of the object with all of those holes is too much of a good thing. Henry mentioned Blocks. Maybe the "holes" area could be broken up into 4 or more parts and a "Block" used to replace them. I don't know how that would affect exporting to a 3D printer.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2018
Designer, Deluxe, Expert, Basic, Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro, 64-bit


* January 18, 2015, 04:32:10 AM
#29
John - So, an entity that's been created as a solid has a lot less baggage that something that was drawn as a 3D surface and converted?  That being the case something drawn as a 2D and converted to a 3D surface and then to a solid is even worse?

And, what about holes?  I created those by making a 2D circle and giving it depth. After rubber-stamping, copying, and mirror-copying once or twice I did a Boolean subtract. But after loading Platinum I found the Hole tool. Does that make an even cleaner model?

And you are using the Fillet tool, but does it work better than the Chamfer tool?  The guy I'm drawing this for wants to chamfer just the top edge, but he might be amenable to a fillet.

I've not used Blocks, but if that would further speed the process I'm game. I don't want to fillet or chamfer the holes, so might placing the holes in a block keep them from being considered in a fillet or chamfer operation?  If not, is there a way to do that?

As for the workspace, what is "LTE"?  I've seen the term used but haven't seen an answer, although I would it is Light Tool Environment.  Anyway, I will try your suggestions on that this afternoon and let you know.

Boy, do I have a lot to learn!  Thanks for being so helpful and patient.

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* January 18, 2015, 07:14:38 PM
#30
There is some good news.  I took John's filleted plate and removed the fillets and then removed the Boolean subtractions.  That gave me the plate with the extruded "walls" on the bottom side and bunches (864?) of cylinders where the holes had been.  And, as I deleted operations in the Part Tree it was amazing how much faster this old laptop got!  In fact, when I got it down to the plate with just the walls it was fairly easy to chamfer the top edges.  I say "fairly" as it was still a little bit difficult as clicking on the line didn't always turn the box red.  I learned to be patient and let the computer show me which edge it would select if I clicked "there" by turning the line green.  And that worked a treat!  The old laptop easily did what the whizz bang shop desktop couldn't - at least in a reasonable amount of time.

I realize it has been obvious to y'all that I don't know what I'm doing, but looking back on it my order of doing things was ..... pretty dumb.  To think I would subtract 864 holes from the plate before trying to chamfer the plate is .... ludicrous.    :-[

Ok, so I'm ever so little bit smarter today than yesterday re the order.  But, now onto the next steps. I've read up on blocks and watched a video or two.  One guy advocates making a block out of the first cylinder and then deploying the blocks for all the other cylinders - or to-be holes.  John, if I understood right, you said to make a block of maybe each quadrant of cylinders.  Right?  Is that better than a block of one cylinder deployed/copied 863 times?

On the other hand, the Platinum package has the 3D hole tool.  So, is it better than subtracting a cylinder?  The write up I read seemed to say it is just an easier way to do a 3D subtraction, meaning skipping the step of making the cylinders.  But, is the final result any different when all you are doing is making a through hole?

Thanks again, guys.  I'll eventually get "there" with your help.   ;)

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* January 19, 2015, 02:28:17 PM
#31
Well, I thought I was done.  I took John's drawing and backed out the fillets, deleted the 3D subtractions, etc.  Put in my chamfering, screw bosses and threaded holes on the bottom, and then subtracted the holes from the plate.  And, from the top it looks good.  But, there's something funky as I have a triangular area on the bottom where the holes don't seem to come all of the way through.  And, there are some individual holes that have the same problem.  So, I need some help as I cannot figure out what I've done.  In fact, the problem doesn't seem to show up in all views.

So, I've attached the file itself as well as various renderings of it because they seem to show different things: Wireframe;Suppressed Lines; Draft; Quality; and Advanced.  I'm lost as I can't find anything that would seem to cause that problem.  So close, but so far away......

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* January 19, 2015, 03:39:08 PM
#32
Well, I thought I was done.  I took John's drawing and backed out the fillets, deleted the 3D subtractions, etc.  Put in my chamfering, screw bosses and threaded holes on the bottom, and then subtracted the holes from the plate.  And, from the top it looks good.  But, there's something funky as I have a triangular area on the bottom where the holes don't seem to come all of the way through.  And, there are some individual holes that have the same problem.  So, I need some help as I cannot figure out what I've done.  In fact, the problem doesn't seem to show up in all views.

So, I've attached the file itself as well as various renderings of it because they seem to show different things: Wireframe;Suppressed Lines; Draft; Quality; and Advanced.  I'm lost as I can't find anything that would seem to cause that problem.  So close, but so far away......

Your problem is a common result of the subtrahend (the subtracting object) and minuend sharing a common face. Before subtracting, be sure the subtracting object (the subtrahend) protrudes beyond the minuend.

Henry H

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* January 19, 2015, 03:50:26 PM
#33
Interesting.  Thanks, a bunch, for the info.

Now, let me make sure I understand - in spite of having a degree in math I was never familiar with the terminology.  Anyway, you are saying that if the cylinder that was used to make the hole doesn't protrude through the plate past the surface of the plate then this problem can occur?  Right?  But, I'm guessing not every time as I've been making my cylinders sit flush with the plate on both sides.

I wonder if the same issue will show up if the project is saved as an STL file.  In other words, can this project be 3D printed w/o being fixed?

Again, thanks!

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* January 19, 2015, 04:00:41 PM
#34
Interesting.  Thanks, a bunch, for the info.

Now, let me make sure I understand - in spite of having a degree in math I was never familiar with the terminology.  Anyway, you are saying that if the cylinder that was used to make the hole doesn't protrude through the plate past the surface of the plate then this problem can occur?  Right?  But, I'm guessing not every time as I've been making my cylinders sit flush with the plate on both sides.

I wonder if the same issue will show up if the project is saved as an STL file.  In other words, can this project be 3D printed w/o being fixed?

Again, thanks!

I always make my subtrahends protrude past my minuends.  Why not.  Why take the chance.

Same with 3D Boolean Adding stuff that have adjacent faces.

Sometimes-- if I want to keep the original Object-- this calls for first making a Copy of the original Object before distorting it a bit to make it so that it protrudes.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 04:06:12 PM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* January 19, 2015, 04:06:05 PM
#35
Thanks.  Would the "hole" tool solve that problem?  In this case I'd replace all of the cylinders with points and then use the tool to create a "through" hole at each of them.

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* January 19, 2015, 05:23:01 PM
#36
Hi Gary,
Try this and take a good look at it and tell me if it looks good and I'll explain what I did. (it look good to me)
The part is still an ASIC solid and you still have your layers but there's no more part tree.

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21.Using Lightworks and Redsdk, Anilab lab 5. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100


* January 19, 2015, 06:16:30 PM
#37
Thanks.  Would the "hole" tool solve that problem? In this case I'd replace all of the cylinders with points and then use the tool to create a "through" hole at each of them.

Yes, it would. But I think you'd have to select the points one at a time. By using cylinders, you could create one, using a unique Pen color, and then array-copy it as required. Then you could select all objects of that color and 3D-Add them all at once, after which TCad would consider them to be a single object. Finally, you could subtract that object from the minuend and thereby create all of the holes with one operation.

Henry H

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* January 19, 2015, 07:16:12 PM
#38
Dean - That looks really good.  Thanks!  And, what did you do?

I'm not sure I'd want to do that normally as I used the goody out of the part tree after John told me about it.  It let me back things out that were a problem but leave those that weren't.  Anyway, I'm all eyes, as it were, for what you did.

Henry - It just seems like using the 3D hole tool is cleaner, but what do I know?  And, I could still array-copy the points, which would be a lot easier to handle for the computer than cylinders - I would think.  Then, when ...... ahhh!  Dawn.  Marblehead.  You can't SELECT the points but one at a time.  I think I understand.  Again, I have a LOT to learn!

Thanks, guys.  You are really, REALLY helping.  (I wish this forum had some of the icons of the FTE forum.  I'd give y'all a thumbs-up.)  Oh, I DON'T HAVE TO PUT IN THE SILLY CHARACTERS ANYMORE!   Yippee!

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* January 19, 2015, 08:26:07 PM
#39
Dean - That looks really good.  Thanks!  And, what did you do?

I'm not sure I'd want to do that normally as I used the goody out of the part tree after John told me about it.  It let me back things out that were a problem but leave those that weren't.  Anyway, I'm all eyes, as it were, for what you did.

Gary,
What I did was use the “deform to point tool” on the surface.First turn off create part editing history. What you do is, Select the deform to point tool then click on the surface(wait for prompt to add point) then click again to add “1” point and don’t move it just click finish. Due to the complexity of your drawing it might take a min. just let turbo do its thing. What this does is reconstruct the facets often fixing minor issues, like you were having. It took about 2 mins to fix but you lose the part tree after using the tool.
Yes, the part tree is very useful but you don’t need to do everything with a single file.As a general rule creating a part tree increases file size. That’s why there’s an option to have it on or off. Most of the time I have it on but if I need more resources I turn it off. I’m working on a low end laptop but I can accomplish a lot with Turbo platinum. Turbo with 64 bit and double precision is massive. You can keep the part tree just make a copy file and eliminate the part tree by exploding the object once. This also defines the ASIC solid > Then send it off as an stl file.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 08:33:28 PM by Dean »

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21.Using Lightworks and Redsdk, Anilab lab 5. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100


* January 20, 2015, 12:23:36 AM
#40
I ran into that "skinning over" anomaly if I subtracted too many objects at once. I used the "Simple Extrude" tool with the "Compound Profile" option on the Circles; 0.375 height. I would select 3-4 rows of circles at a time in the bottom left quadrant to extrude. If you expand the part tree in my original drawing and click on a "3D Subtract" heading, you'll see how many were selected. Once I had that quadrant complete, I'd select the extrusions, then Explode once to break the association to the circles. I went to "Delta Z" and dropped the extrusions 0.09375. Now the cylinders are above & below the plate by 3/32". I Mirror copied the quadrant to the right, then the two quadrants to the top. Now I could start subtracting the 40 extrusions. Previously, I had extruded the whole quadrant of circles as one unit, then mirror copied. The extrusions were above & below the plate, but ended up with the bottom holes covered over during a render. I figured TurboCAD or ACIS can't handle too many subtractions at once, so I reduced the amount being subtracted at any-one-time. That worked for me.

When extruding a large amount of objects, set the Height value and Lock it (Ctrl+L) first, then extrude. Once the selection is done, wait for the 'spinning' to stop, then tab into the Height field and "Enter", as the number is already there. If you start the extrude and then try to enter a Height value of more than one digit, it's going to be like molasses.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2018
Designer, Deluxe, Expert, Basic, Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro, 64-bit


* January 20, 2015, 05:15:33 AM
#41
Dean - I've got it, I've got it, I ain't got it. Wow, that's a lot to take in. In fact, the "deform to point" tool is one I've not encountered. But I will go looking. Thanks again.  And, the fact that you can get things done with what sounds like about the same laptop I have gives me encouragement. For a while it was looking like my big shop computer wasn't even going to be enough, but it was just the way I was going about it.

John - I've played with the part tree in your file extensively, getting it to show me what you did and the order in which you did it. But I didn't discover the Delta Z trick, so when I redid things (deleted, mirror copied, etc) I probably wound up placing everything back on the face. And that's where the glitch arose.

But, another question: You used an extrude on the circles, but I went into properties and gave the circle depth. Does that do the same thing?  It probably doesn't show up on the part tree if it does, though.

Again, thanks!

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* January 20, 2015, 10:40:13 AM
#42
re: Extrude.

Back in the beginning of 3D within TC (v5, 6, 7), applying thickness to a 2D circle usually gave you a faceted looking solid, whereas the Rigid Extrude tool (replaced by Simple Extrude) would generate smooth cylinders. "Thickness" may have improved in the late 'teen' version, but good ole habits are hard to break.

If you go to the beginning of the PartTree (bottom of the list)……
…Ahh, I see I did something different than what I described. When I moved the quadrant of extrusions down, I had not exploded them, so the circles moved down, creating a new workplane. After all the Mirror Copying, I went back, selected the circles and brought them back up to the World Workplane (Ctrl+Alt+W / FPOWP). That moved that first quadrant back up, but the others remained in place.
Select the PartTree header, then hit the Star key in the numeric keypad; this will expand all the categories. In a Front view, selecting extrudes at the beginning of the Tree (bottom) show the extrudes level with the bottom of the plate. Extrudes in other quadrants (farther up the list) show that they are where I wanted them; below & above the plate.

So extending a subtraction past the face can be a help, but it may not be entirely necessary.

Some of the circles with thickness will show up in the PartTree; mainly the first and last of those I had added together as a selection. The other aren't on the list.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2018
Designer, Deluxe, Expert, Basic, Platinum
RedSDK enabled
Windows 10 Pro, 64-bit


* January 20, 2015, 01:53:08 PM
#43
Thanks for the explanation.  I thought I understood it, but I've proven myself wrong.   >:(

I need another part for the dash panel, and it is a piece that will screw on the bottom and sandwich the dash pad between the original plate and this new piece.  So, I found several ways not to create it today, and then realized I could trace the outside with a polyline and make it a plate.  And then trace the inside and make it a plate and subtract it from the first one.  And, remembering the previous problems I made the outer plate .375" thick and the inner one .675" thick.  Then I dialed .500 into Delta Z, and then looked at it in ISO.  Sure enough, the inner part was sticking out both top and bottom.  Subtracted the inner from the outer and all looked good in wireframe.  But in Draft or anything better I have "the" problem again.

I drew another piece, in yellow in the attached pic, and subtracted it from the remaining piece.  No change.  Anyway, I've attached the screengrabs so you can see it, but maybe I'd better fix it myself this time.  I can't find the “deform to point tool” or I'd give it a try.  (Boy, this package really knows how to humble a guy!)  So, please tell me what I'm doing wrong.  And, THANKS!

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* January 20, 2015, 02:05:55 PM
#44
Well, when delving into the views I found what appears to be a glitch.  In Hidden Line rendering there are two corners where the line on the inside of the corner doesn't go to the top, as shown in the first attachment.  But, it looks right in Wireframe.  However, in Draft and Advanced there's a top and bottom piece protruding, with a hollow in the middle, as shown in the second pic.  But, in Quality there's on the top piece, as shown in the third pic.

Am I chasing shadows with what is being shown?  I'm confused. 

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* January 20, 2015, 05:59:21 PM
#45
Well, when delving into the views I found what appears to be a glitch.  In Hidden Line rendering there are two corners where the line on the inside of the corner doesn't go to the top, as shown in the first attachment.  But, it looks right in Wireframe.  However, in Draft and Advanced there's a top and bottom piece protruding, with a hollow in the middle, as shown in the second pic.  But, in Quality there's on the top piece, as shown in the third pic.

Am I chasing shadows with what is being shown?  I'm confused.

I'm confused too. Can you post the .tcw?

Henry H

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* January 20, 2015, 07:31:11 PM
#46
You bet, Henry.  And, in this file you'll see that I've drawn yet another lower plate/collar, in yellow on layer New Collar.  Should be what comes up.  And this plate did basically the same thing, although with a bit more "extra".

I'm really confused and disheartened.  I laid out a plate .375"" thick, laid out one in the middle of it that is .475" thick with a .050" offset, confirmed they are lined up in 3D, and subtracted the inside from the outside.  Then, I used the hole tool and punched 16 "through" holes in it, and when I checked by going into Draft mode there's a problem.

And, as I was typing that I wondered, so I just backed out all 16 holes.  Sure enough, there's no distortion.  Hmmmm, something with the holes is causing the problem.  And, since the issue is when the end of a cylinder is flush with the face and you subtract it, what if TurboCAD is doing exactly that with the hole tool?  Guess I need to ditch the hole tool for a "through" hole and use cylinders?

Anyway, the file is attached, but in it all 16 holes are still there.  Perhaps you can see what I'm doing.  Thanks!

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* January 21, 2015, 08:04:31 AM
#47
This morning I deleted all of the hole operations, using the Part Tree, and then placed cylinders where each hole was.  The cylinders are .475" long and protrude .050" above and below the bottom plate, and that was verified by looking at the plate from above and below, as shown in the first two screen grabs.  Then I subtracted one hole from the plate and immediately had "extra", as shown in the third pic.   :(

Then I copied everything on that layer and pasted it into a new file, thinking the baggage of everything else in the file might be the issue.  Nope.  But some cylinders seem to work fine, while others make TurboCAD "cut the corner" at the top and bottom of the plate.  The fourth pic shows the cylinders that cause problems.

Please help.  At this point I'm not sure whether I'm just inept or TurboCAD is the wrong software for me.  I'm just trying to do what I think are simple things to create 3D files that can be printed, but I am spending far more time on the software than I am on the hobby.   :'(

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* January 21, 2015, 10:55:44 AM
#48
Dunno, Gary. After playing with your drawing for a while, my best guess is that there's a curse on the part. I'd start over, with a brand-new drawing. It's really not that complicated a part. Also, I would DISable the Part Tree, 'cuz in my experience it can introduce a whole lot of frustrating complications. I turn it on only when I anticipate some trial-and-error in future operations (such as bending).

Henry H

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* January 21, 2015, 11:36:37 AM
#49
Henry - Thanks.  I really appreciate the help, or at least the attempt and intent to help.

I tried Dean's "deform to point tool" trick, but it didn't work, either.  However, I didn't turn off "create part editing history" as I didn't know how to do that, so perhaps that's the reason it didn't work.

I started to take your advice and just go off of dimensions and redraw it, but I think I'll try another package instead.  When the real gurus don't know what the problem is it doesn't seem like the package a newbie should be using. 

I still have notifications turned on, so if someone can tell me what I did wrong I'd be thrilled.  As I said previously, I've used TurboCAD for probably 15 years and don't want to change.  But I've spent way too much time trying to fix problems that seem to be due to the application rather than the user - although that may well be wrong.  Anyway, I really, REALLY appreciate the help y'all have given me.  And, I may be back as I may blow the other app (Cubify Design) up as well. 

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* January 23, 2015, 01:23:41 PM
#50
Well, I'm baaaaaack!  And I'm basically here to close out this thread - although I will start a new one on a slightly different topic.

Anyway, you'll remember that I decided I was inept and causing all sorts of problems with a program that has more bells and whistles than I should be playing with. So, off I went to try another program, Cubify, and it crashed just trying to import the project I'd saved in TurboCAD, which didn't bode well.  So, I tried redrawing the whole thing in Cubify.  But, since I don't where the tools are that I want to use it was seriously frustrating.  And, I kept thinking "You know where it is in TurboCAD, so why are you doing this???"  After a couple of days banging my head against a new wall I came back to TurboCAD.  And, I've had some success so wanted to close out this thread with what I found.

What I did was to start deleting things in the previous project file and found gobs and gobs of extraneous "stuff".  Once I got down to the essentials I redrew the plate, chamfered it, placed hundreds of new cylinders that overlapped the surfaces, and subtracted them.  And, it worked perfectly!  Stoked, I redrew the lower plate, the one that caused the most recent problems, and sure enough it skimmed over on the corners when certain holes were created with the hole tool.  So I created cylinders that overlapped the surfaces and got the same results when the cylinders in the problem areas were deleted.

Given that, and not wanting to completely start over, I copied and pasted the wireframe of just that collar and cylinders into a new file - and it skimmed over when I subtracted the cylinders from the plate.  But, on a whim I took the .1875" thickness to .150" and the skimming went away!  So, I put it back to .1875" and the skimming didn't reappear.  Yippeee!  But, what would happen if I tried that in the original file?  Well, over there the skimming didn't leave when the thickness was reduced.  So, I copied the "good" wireframe into the "bad" file and ...... the skimming appeared immediately.   Further, reducing this one to .15" and taking it back to .1875" didn't help either.  So, apparently I have something in that file that is haunting it, like Henry said.  I don't know what it is, but I can live with what I have as I have two files that I'm pretty sure will work on a 3D printer - one for the original plate and one for the new, lower plate.

So, I don't see a need to discover what the problem was with the original file.  (My mentor in programming said not to go figure out why a program does what it does.  When you fix it just move on.)  But, I do want to thank y'all for the help as I wouldn't have gotten this far w/o you.  And, if you'll take me back then I'll start a new thread with more, but different, questions.   ;)

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