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32bit vs 64bit
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* November 26, 2009, 06:16:40 PM
Given all other factors are equal...

what percentage TC preformance gain is there to be had 64 bit vs 32 bit?

davedbk


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David Knowling
Windows 7 Pro 64, TC16.2.54.0


* November 26, 2009, 07:25:11 PM
#1
I have seen no change but my drawing are not very complicated or large.  That said I would go with 64 bit anyway, your machine has the option of using much more memory which should make things run smoother

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Reg
Pro Platinum 2017(current)
TC 21 pro platnium
TC pro 19
TC pro 16.2 Architectural
Win 10 64 bit  16g DDR3 Intel i7 quad core


* November 26, 2009, 07:26:41 PM
#2
ok, that's a bit blanket.

As I've got lots of old software - photoshop, dreamweaver etc.

and with TC in it's 16.2 guise....

what performance gain am I going to see?


And then, if we take TC's next upgrade into consideration with red tech etc...?

Thanks,
davedbk

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David Knowling
Windows 7 Pro 64, TC16.2.54.0


* November 27, 2009, 04:19:01 AM
#3
Hi Reg,

My

Quote
ok, that's a bit blanket

comment wasn't to your response... I was ellaborating on my initial post at the same time you were responding.  Thankyou for replying.


Memory utilisation will be an issue at some time, so there is merit for moving to 64 bit.


Being reluctant to hand out money year by year, I do not in principal upgrade my software except where the benefit is tangible e.g. TC.

I'm considering my next hardware upgrade and there's to be a compromise between latest tech with 64 bit or higher resolution (notebook). So...

- is my old software likely to suffer with 64 bit?
- will TC 16.2 benefit from 64 bit?
- will next TC, if Redsdk is included (http://www.redway3d.com/news/news300909.php), benefit from 64 bit?

Or will the difference be negligble?
davedbk


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David Knowling
Windows 7 Pro 64, TC16.2.54.0


* November 27, 2009, 01:03:20 PM
#4
The benefit of 64 bit is that the system will be able to use greater than 4 Gb of ram. In a 32 bit system, if you have 4Gb of ram, the maximum available memory is the 4Gb of ram minus video ram. On most systems with decent video cards, that would translate to about 3.25 Gb of usable memory. Adding more than 4 Gb of ram to a 32 bit system is a waste of money.

I wouldn't buy a 32 bit system just for that reason. Obviously, when you're doing complex drawings and rendering the extra ram would be beneficial.

I don't think it makes any difference (in most cases) whether you have a 32 bit or 64 bit OS. It generally comes down to running older programs in compatibility mode which is touch and go, especially if you have Vista or Win 7. Of course, if you have a copy of an older OS that supports your old programs, you can load it and run your old programs in Virtual PC on Vista. If you have Win 7 Ultimate, enterprise or Professional, virtual XP is available. Virtual XP is not available in Win 7 home premium or less. You can check it out at the microsoft website.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 01:09:31 PM by Robert »

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* November 27, 2009, 09:11:35 PM
#5
I have a few older programs, I have not had to use the xp mode at all.  I found drivers for all my older scanners and printers without trouble.  I had one program that would not install and the solution was to copy the whole dir from my old system to the new one and like to the exe file.  Not sure how that worked but it did,   no actual install.  I also run photoshop on here and its older.   I think ver8.  no problem with that.  I just need to get a bunch more ram now and see if I will notice any difference.

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Reg
Pro Platinum 2017(current)
TC 21 pro platnium
TC pro 19
TC pro 16.2 Architectural
Win 10 64 bit  16g DDR3 Intel i7 quad core


* November 28, 2009, 12:03:19 AM
#6
Thanks guys.

XP mode sounds like it'll cover any unlikely hassles.

64 bit it is.

Cheers,
davdbk

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David Knowling
Windows 7 Pro 64, TC16.2.54.0


November 28, 2009, 01:33:53 AM
#7
Thanks guys.

XP mode sounds like it'll cover any unlikely hassles.

64 bit it is.

Cheers,
davdbk

Yes, I would agree.  But; spending resources on upgrading to a 64 bit system, at the present time, will not, of itself, be cost effective.  TC will only use up to 2 Gb of ram, regardless.

So, for TC, and other high-end use, it might be better to save your pennies until we have everything available and optimised for a 64 bit operating system.  This is the way things are going.

I'm willing to wait with what I've got, 32 bit XP and TC, for the time being!

Regards Tim

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You can design without engineering, but you cannot engineer without design.
Using Win 10 with Designer 2017 and TurboCAD Pro. Plat. 2016/2017/2018 + Lightworks (64-bit versions) + AnimationLab.


* November 28, 2009, 11:19:58 AM
#8
If you're happy with what you have, then stay with it. I did that with Win 98 until I started running out of hard disk space and the newer programs needed more resources. Went straight to 64 Bit Vista and updated all my programs. Cost me a bit of money but all the newer features of these programs compared to the earlier versions are very nice.

Not sure why TC will only use 2 Gb?

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November 28, 2009, 02:39:37 PM
#9
Yes, I would agree.  But; spending resources on upgrading to a 64 bit system, at the present time, will not, of itself, be cost effective.  TC will only use up to 2 Gb of ram, regardless.


That's not the impression I got in this thread:  http://forums.turbocad.com/index.php/topic,1137.0.html

From what I understood (and perhaps I'm wrong), the 2GB limit isn't in TurboCAD, but in the 32 bit software itself (in my case, Windows XP Home).  I thought I understood that switching to the 64 bit system will allow TC to use more RAM than before.


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Josh T.
meatballrocketry.com
TC Pro 18.2 & Platinum 2016


* November 28, 2009, 08:42:56 PM
#10
Quote
From what I understood (and perhaps I'm wrong), the 2GB limit isn't in TurboCAD, but in the 32 bit software itself (in my case, Windows XP Home).  I thought I understood that switching to the 64 bit system will allow TC to use more RAM than before.


Reg,
How much ram do you have?

Drumn4J,
Did you have a project Reg could trial render if he's got 4Gb ram or more?


I have to upgrade my hardware anyway, so I'll be able to trial it in a few weeks.... but surely there's someone who could alrready give us an answer?


davedbk


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David Knowling
Windows 7 Pro 64, TC16.2.54.0


November 29, 2009, 09:57:54 AM
#11
I don't know if using my TC v. 11 Pro model is the best way to try it; it uses lots of large image wraps that won't transfer directly for someone else (I don't know if v. 16 is better at file sharing with image wraps or not).  I don't know how much those image wraps affect the RAM usage totals.

However, see this thread for a render test discussion:  http://forums.turbocad.com/index.php/topic,856.0.html

I haven't tried it out on my system, but I'm downloading the file right now to see what happens.


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Josh T.
meatballrocketry.com
TC Pro 18.2 & Platinum 2016


November 29, 2009, 12:27:52 PM
#12
I did the render test program on my system, and it took 7 min, 16 sec.  So it appears that it does *not* max out my RAM on 32-bit Windows XP, so perhaps it's irrelevant for testing RAM usage of TC on a 64-bit system.


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Josh T.
meatballrocketry.com
TC Pro 18.2 & Platinum 2016


* November 29, 2009, 01:58:29 PM
#13
I only have 3 right now as well so I guess my first post has less merit.

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Reg
Pro Platinum 2017(current)
TC 21 pro platnium
TC pro 19
TC pro 16.2 Architectural
Win 10 64 bit  16g DDR3 Intel i7 quad core


* November 29, 2009, 04:12:17 PM
#14
Drumn4J, thanks for considering the test.

Reg,

Your 3Gb would be fine I think for the test. We just want to see if TC can access more than 2Gb ram.

If you'd like, I can email you a tc16 file that gives me the out of memory error on my 1.5Gb ram system about 1/3 through the quality and advanced renders - with tc using 818Mb ram. However, there is no garantee that it'll need more than 2Gb to render (your time may be spent in vain)  and the file is 2.5Mb in size.

Let me know if would like to try it.  If not, I'll let you know how I'll go in a couple of weeks.


Cheers,
davedbk


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David Knowling
Windows 7 Pro 64, TC16.2.54.0


* November 29, 2009, 04:57:57 PM
#15
I would be willing to give it a go.  Not sure what my email limit size is.  might have to find another way to get it to me. 

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Reg
Pro Platinum 2017(current)
TC 21 pro platnium
TC pro 19
TC pro 16.2 Architectural
Win 10 64 bit  16g DDR3 Intel i7 quad core


November 29, 2009, 05:51:28 PM
#16
Daved,

Maybe the thing to do is to duplicate the parts of your file so that you have more 3D parts to render and use up more RAM if it doesn't max out the 2GB limit.

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Josh T.
meatballrocketry.com
TC Pro 18.2 & Platinum 2016


* November 29, 2009, 06:27:56 PM
#17
I ran out of memory too.  that is quite the drawing.  well I am going to go get a bunch of memory this week, hopefully tomorrow and then will try it again.   

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Reg
Pro Platinum 2017(current)
TC 21 pro platnium
TC pro 19
TC pro 16.2 Architectural
Win 10 64 bit  16g DDR3 Intel i7 quad core


* November 29, 2009, 06:31:19 PM
#18
Drumn4J, thanks for considering the test.

Reg,

Your 3Gb would be fine I think for the test. We just want to see if TC can access more than 2Gb ram.

If you'd like, I can email you a tc16 file that gives me the out of memory error on my 1.5Gb ram system about 1/3 through the quality and advanced renders - with tc using 818Mb ram. However, there is no garantee that it'll need more than 2Gb to render (your time may be spent in vain)  and the file is 2.5Mb in size.

Let me know if would like to try it.  If not, I'll let you know how I'll go in a couple of weeks.


Cheers,
davedbk



Forum size limit for an attachment is 4096 kb. Try posting your file here.

Henry H

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* November 29, 2009, 06:57:40 PM
#19
I tidied up a few items - they must have had inconsistencies. The file size is back to 750Kb.

As Drumn4J suggested, I made multiple copies of some entities.


Henry, See attached.


Reg,
What was task manager's tally on the TC process's memory when you ran out?

davedbk

[attachment deleted by admin]

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David Knowling
Windows 7 Pro 64, TC16.2.54.0


* November 29, 2009, 07:20:08 PM
#20
I tidied up a few items - they must have had inconsistencies. The file size is back to 750Kb.

As Drumn4J suggested, I made multiple copies of some entities.


Henry, See attached.


Reg,
What was task manager's tally on the TC process's memory when you ran out?

davedbk

"Out of memory" even though only about 915 MB of my available RAM was used. I turned off the "Point" light -- which casts shadows -- and the drawing rendered with no trouble in 1m 27s.

Henry H

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* November 29, 2009, 07:26:16 PM
#21
And TC allocated memory didn't get to 2Gb?

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David Knowling
Windows 7 Pro 64, TC16.2.54.0


* November 29, 2009, 07:35:41 PM
#22
well it said 75% and would not go past 1547,380k  not sure what all that means.
seems like it does not want to go past the 2g mark I think

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Reg
Pro Platinum 2017(current)
TC 21 pro platnium
TC pro 19
TC pro 16.2 Architectural
Win 10 64 bit  16g DDR3 Intel i7 quad core


* November 30, 2009, 04:20:03 PM
#23
well here is what I found out.  I put my ram to 7g.  I ran that program and my ram usage only got to what it used to idle at.  So it seems tc is limited to the amount of ram it can use.  seems like the 2g limit may be true.  TC was able to get to 1415,896.  my ram usage was 36% during the highest point.  So I guess with tc16 don't matter if you have 64 or 32 bit operating system.  My cpu was certainly maxed out.  but its a single core athlon 64

hope this helps.  I know I now have enough ram anyway.

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Reg
Pro Platinum 2017(current)
TC 21 pro platnium
TC pro 19
TC pro 16.2 Architectural
Win 10 64 bit  16g DDR3 Intel i7 quad core


* November 30, 2009, 04:50:51 PM
#24
Thanks Reg.

It looks like we have concluded that 64 bit has minimal if any performance gain for TC16.


So performance gains for TC16* are limited to:

- increasing ram to 2Gb (any more does not benefit)
- upgrading (single) core speed (divide duo core cpu mark by two, divide quad core cpu mark by four)
- TC going 64 bit (IMSI to do)
- TC supporting multi-core processing (IMSI to do)
- TC utilising graphics card processing (IMSI to do)

*assuming you're not doing something silly like video editing or playing games in the background ))


Back to my original question - should I go 32bit or 64bit? Well we've had a fun journey getting to where we probably knew we were going all along. If current performance is satisfactory, keep your money. If you have to upgrade and you upgrade infrequently, go 64 bit.

Maybe TC will be 64 bit next release, and it looks like we are going some way to multi-core and GPU processing next release (RedSDK).


I'm looking forward to that.

davedbk

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David Knowling
Windows 7 Pro 64, TC16.2.54.0


* December 03, 2009, 12:30:48 PM
#25
If you're going to update your system, why not go to 64 bit Windows? Who knows what other program you have might benefit from it now or in the future. Microsoft and the manufacturers hid the RAM limitation of a 32 bit system for at least two years. As I understand it now, the manufacturers have gone primarily to 64 bit. The cost is not that great.

I wanted to note that there are numerous programs out there which have a "file size" limit of 2 Gb. This shouldn't be confused with the RAM usage under discussion.


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* December 03, 2009, 04:43:16 PM
#26
we are saying that TC can not use more then 2g of RAM.  If it needs more then that to do a job it aborts.

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Reg
Pro Platinum 2017(current)
TC 21 pro platnium
TC pro 19
TC pro 16.2 Architectural
Win 10 64 bit  16g DDR3 Intel i7 quad core


* December 04, 2009, 06:42:57 PM
#27
I understand. I was just trying to make the distinction in case someone was mixing apples and oranges.

I wonder why TC folks haven't jumped on this one.

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* December 04, 2009, 07:34:45 PM
#28
I have no clue about programming but assume that it has to do with keeping there program compatible with the masses.  Not everyone will have 64 bit O/S for a while.  TC ran fine on my XP and I only upgraded to win7 just because I wanted to see something different. 

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Reg
Pro Platinum 2017(current)
TC 21 pro platnium
TC pro 19
TC pro 16.2 Architectural
Win 10 64 bit  16g DDR3 Intel i7 quad core