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Objects with Luminance: Luminance Location Coordinates
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* November 25, 2014, 06:38:18 AM
I'm tired of being in the dark on this subject.  I thought Henry shed some light on it for me the other day, but the bulb still hasn't switched on for me.


When we assign a Luminance to an Object, and we want that luminance to appear as to be emanating from the Object, do we have to Edit the Luminance's location to correspond with the Object's location, in World coordinates?

Attached is that little "Den Desk" drawing.  I have created and inserted an Object that is to be representative of a "puck light", mounted under the shelf above the countertop.  I can't get that sucker to emit light.

Can someone please clarify for us if indeed we have to Edit the Luminance location to correspond with the Object's location.  If yes, doesn't that potentially result in scores of custom Luminances in Users' Luminance.dat file?  Or what I am missing here?

Also, if we do have to create different Luminances for each-and-every Object with Luminance assigned in each-and-every Drawing, is it good practice-- when using something "standard" that will be used in multiple Drawings (such as this "puck light")-- to Save just that one Object as its own Drawing file, with the Object located at 0,0,0, and just XRef it into the Drawing?

Thanks for providing some illumination on this subject.  -Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


November 25, 2014, 07:20:11 AM
#1
When I light interiors I create small spheres just below the light fixture and assign it a point light of a specific intensity. I then check Load to render luminance only so the sphere doesn't show in the render. I have a few preset luminance that I assign, some with no shadows for testing large environment and some with shadow for the final rendering, since these large environments can have many lights and shadows can' take much time to calculate (but it is well worth the time.

To have the light look like it is on I assign a constant white material to the bulb or the inside of the 'shade'.


* November 25, 2014, 07:46:00 AM
#2
When I light interiors I create small spheres just below the light fixture and assign it a point light of a specific intensity. I then check Load to render luminance only so the sphere doesn't show in the render. I have a few preset luminance that I assign, some with no shadows for testing large environment and some with shadow for the final rendering, since these large environments can have many lights and shadows can' take much time to calculate (but it is well worth the time.

To have the light look like it is on I assign a constant white material to the bulb or the inside of the 'shade'.

Thank You Don for your response.  I'm studying it.

So... The location values of the Luminance-- in each Luminance settings-- do not have to be the same as the Object's location? (in World coordinates)

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 25, 2014, 07:49:42 AM
#3
And, can you Don-- or someone-- adjust the inside Cylinder and its Luminance of the "puck light" Group in the Drawing I attached in my first Post such that it gives a realistic light effect.  So that I/we can study it.

It would be much appreciated.  -Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


November 25, 2014, 08:11:41 AM
#4
When I light interiors I create small spheres just below the light fixture and assign it a point light of a specific intensity. I then check Load to render luminance only so the sphere doesn't show in the render. I have a few preset luminance that I assign, some with no shadows for testing large environment and some with shadow for the final rendering, since these large environments can have many lights and shadows can' take much time to calculate (but it is well worth the time.

To have the light look like it is on I assign a constant white material to the bulb or the inside of the 'shade'.

Thank You Don for your response.  I'm studying it.

So... The location values of the Luminance-- in each Luminance settings-- do not have to be the same as the Object's location? (in World coordinates)

-Alvin

Correct - not when you are assigning the luminance to the object.


November 25, 2014, 08:27:38 AM
#5
Alvin

The problem with your luminance in the drawing is the object it has been assigned too.

1. it is a surface object and as with materials the coordinates are off so the light could be anywhere.
2. I created a solid box and changed the luminance location settings etc.

See image:
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 08:33:28 AM by Darrel Durose »

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* November 25, 2014, 08:29:00 AM
#6
...
Correct - not when you are assigning the luminance to the object.

Okay.  That really clears that up for me, once and for all.

I'm still studying your previous post and experimenting within my "Den Desk" Drawing, with that "puck light".  I'm (stubbornly?) trying to get the Cylinder that represents the inside of the "puck-light" to have the Luminance and shine down, in about a 30° conical spread.  Not having much luck; it just kind of lights of the whole area when I use a Point Light.

I like what you do with using that White/Constant Material for the bulb-lense, to make it appear that it is illuminating.  That reminded me of Dean's suggestion the other day on a similar subject, to use a Material with Pattern=Plain/White; Reflectance="Lit appearance", which looks pretty good as well.

I hope to get this little light to shine down in that conical shape like I want...

Thanks for your enlightenment on this subject Don.  -Alvin  [and the puns keep coming... can't help myself]

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Alvin Gregorio
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* November 25, 2014, 08:33:12 AM
#7
Alvin

The problem with your drawing is the object it has been assigned to0.

1. it is a surface object and as with materials the coordinates are off so the light could be anywhere.
2. I created a solid box and changed the luminance location etc.

See image:

Ooohhh...  I'm working in Deluxe.  So that's why I can never seem to be able to achieve what I am trying to achieve?  --Something like as shown in the "image guide" you posted the other day Darrel.


-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
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* November 25, 2014, 08:38:09 AM
#8
Alvin

The problem with your luminance in the drawing is the object it has been assigned too.

1. it is a surface object and as with materials the coordinates are off so the light could be anywhere.
2. I created a solid box and changed the luminance location settings etc.

See image:

Actually, the only thing I comprehended from that quoted above is "surface object" and "solid...".

I do not understand how the Object being a "surface object" causes "the coordinates are off so the light could be anywhere".

And-- regarding #2 above:  Don just stated that the location of Luminance light, doesn't matter.  But you wrote Darrel that it does-- even with a Solid, apparently.

I'm back to being in the dark.   Any further illumination?  Thanks- Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


November 25, 2014, 08:42:09 AM
#9
Alvin

I only change the Z location value to zero so that the source was central to the box and pointing down. Wherever I move the box the luminance will follow... :)

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* November 25, 2014, 08:45:45 AM
#10
Alvin

I only change the Z location value to zero so that the source was central to the box and pointing down. Wherever I move the box the luminance will follow... :)

Okay.  Thanks for that clarification Darrel.

What about the TcSurface/Solid, Deluxe/Pro, question.  Will I just plain not be able to achieve what you achieved in Deluxe, limited to TcSurface Objects?

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
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* November 25, 2014, 08:46:09 AM
#11
And, can you Don-- or someone-- adjust the inside Cylinder and its Luminance of the "puck light" Group in the Drawing I attached in my first Post such that it gives a realistic light effect.  So that I/we can study it.

It would be much appreciated.  -Alvin

There's something screwed up in your drawing, Alvin. Don't know why, but I was unable to make any kind of Luminance work correctly with your "puck light," or even with a brand-new object in its place. But I copy-and-pasted everything except that light into an empty new drawing and was able to make a Luminance behave as it should. (I opted for a "Point" Luminance, because all the "Goniometrics" are pretty tricky.)

I'm attaching the new drawing, in v19 Deluxe format. You'll probably want to add some more lights, since this drawing contains only one Headlight and one Ambient light besides the Luminance.

Henry H

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* November 25, 2014, 08:57:05 AM
#12
...
There's something screwed up in your drawing, Alvin. Don't know why, but I was unable to make any kind of Luminance work correctly with your "puck light," or even with a brand-new object in its place.
...
Henry H

"There's something screwed up in your drawing..."
  --Well that certainly can be while I'm struggling.


You know, this Drawing was created starting with a fellow Forum-members Drawing with a similar file-name.  Maybe that's the cause.  Or, maybe, the cause is that this file was edited and Saved in my version-19-Deluxe installation, under my "main" User Account-- the User Account that is not allowing me to edit Lightworks stuff (TC freezes when I attempt to).

I'll have to try again from scratch in that User Account to see if I can narrow down the cause.  Meanwhile, I'll explore the file you provided Henry via this "secondary" User Account, and again in that "main" User Account.

Thanks so much Don, Darrel, and Henry.  -Alvin


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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 25, 2014, 09:17:37 AM
#13
Just for the record:  I didn't get it.  I couldn't figure it out.

I opened Henry's file and, yeah, I could see his light when rendered.  But I couldn't get my own-created Objects to replicate that-- even using Henry's exact same Luminance.  Except a Sphere.  If I drew a new Sphere, and assigned Henry's Luminance, then, yes, I could get that to work.

Maybe it's a Deluxe/TC-Surface Object limitation... that I can't get that nice light as shown below.



-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


November 25, 2014, 01:47:55 PM
#14
Alvin

After a few experiments I have found that the Surface object's size affects the Luminance offset.

If you keep the object as small as possible your luminance is located close by!  :) ;) :D


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* November 25, 2014, 02:03:13 PM
#15
Alvin

After a few experiments I have found that the Surface object's size affects the Luminance offset.

If you keep the object as small as possible your luminance is located close by!  :) ;) :D

Thank you Darrel.  I'll keep that in mind while experimenting.  It's useful just knowing that Deluxe with TC-Surface Objects does not behave exactly the same as Solids in Pro versions, in regards to Objects' Luminance.

I need to figure out a way to make money with-- and to justify and enable the purchase of-- a Pro Platinum version.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


November 25, 2014, 02:06:08 PM
#16
This image shows my findings:

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* November 25, 2014, 02:13:01 PM
#17
This image shows my findings:

Real cool.  Thanks for that Darrel.  At least takes some of the mystery out of it.  -Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
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---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 25, 2014, 02:14:42 PM
#18
So should I-- in Deluxe, using TC Surface Objects-- be able to eventually achieve something similar to that shown below?  -Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
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---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


November 25, 2014, 02:34:45 PM
#19
Yes, have a go now we are a bit more in the "know"  ;)

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* November 25, 2014, 02:35:42 PM
#20
Yes, have a go now we are a bit more in the "know"  ;)

all-righty then...

Thanks for the help Darrel.  -Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
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* November 25, 2014, 02:36:01 PM
#21
It seems that in Deluxe, the Location and To parameters (for a Spot Luminance, at any rate) are expressed in World coordinates. This is different from Pro, in which these parameters are expressed in terms of the object to which the Luminance is assigned. Much easier in Pro, IMO, because one can manipulate the object to "aim" the light. This does not work in Deluxe.

Alvin, here's an updated version of your drawing, in which I've added a "Spot" Luminance and an "Area" Luminance. The latter is on Layer "Area Luminance," which is currently hidden.

Henry H

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* November 25, 2014, 02:41:42 PM
#22
It seems that in Deluxe, the Location and To parameters (for a Spot Luminance, at any rate) are expressed in World coordinates. This is different from Pro, in which these parameters are expressed in terms of the object to which the Luminance is assigned. Much easier in Pro, IMO, because one can manipulate the object to "aim" the light. This does not work in Deluxe.

Alvin, here's an updated version of your drawing, in which I've added a "Spot" Luminance and an "Area" Luminance. The latter is on Layer "Area Luminance," which is currently hidden.

Henry H

Thank you Henry.  I explore this new file.

So, that brings me all the way back to my original query:

It seems that in Deluxe, we do indeed have to have multiple Luminances saved for all the multiple Objects they are assigned to, in all the multiple Drawings. (for Spot Luminances, at any rate).
This is because each Luminances' location is in relation to World coordinates.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
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* November 25, 2014, 02:58:08 PM
#23
It seems that in Deluxe, the Location and To parameters (for a Spot Luminance, at any rate) are expressed in World coordinates. This is different from Pro, in which these parameters are expressed in terms of the object to which the Luminance is assigned. Much easier in Pro, IMO, because one can manipulate the object to "aim" the light. This does not work in Deluxe.

Alvin, here's an updated version of your drawing, in which I've added a "Spot" Luminance and an "Area" Luminance. The latter is on Layer "Area Luminance," which is currently hidden.

Henry H

I am soooo confused.

When I explore your "Alvins Desk2.TCW" file Henry, the slate-blue Sphere with the "Spot" Luminance is located somewhere around 34,23,30 (World CS); but when I check the "Spot" Luminance "Spot"-light location (via Edit Luminance), its Location=0,0,1; which seems contradictory to what you wrote, quoted above.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 25, 2014, 03:03:31 PM
#24
It seems that in Deluxe, the Location and To parameters (for a Spot Luminance, at any rate) are expressed in World coordinates. This is different from Pro, in which these parameters are expressed in terms of the object to which the Luminance is assigned. Much easier in Pro, IMO, because one can manipulate the object to "aim" the light. This does not work in Deluxe.

Alvin, here's an updated version of your drawing, in which I've added a "Spot" Luminance and an "Area" Luminance. The latter is on Layer "Area Luminance," which is currently hidden.

Henry H

I am soooo confused.

When I explore your "Alvins Desk2.TCW" file Henry, the slate-blue Sphere with the "Spot" Luminance is located somewhere around 34,23,30 (World CS); but when I check the "Spot" Luminance "Spot"-light location (via Edit Luminance), its Location=0,0,1; which seems contradictory to what you wrote, quoted above.

-Alvin

No, I get it.  It is as you stated Henry.  I had it backwards.

The light-- the actual illumination-- is in fact at 0,0,1; just as it is set to.

I have to remember:  It's not the location of the "light-object" that "Location" is referring to; it's the location of the light-- the illumination.

-Alvin
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 03:05:10 PM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
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---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


November 25, 2014, 03:16:44 PM
#25
Alvin

Have you tried the settings I changed for the 2AV G 2 17 SBL ASR White Luminance

I changed the intensity to 3000 from 60 when I was experimenting.

I want to know that Deluxe does use the objects CS location rather than the World CS. Remember to make the object really small.

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* November 25, 2014, 04:01:30 PM
#26
Alvin
...

I want to know that Deluxe does use the objects CS location rather than the World CS. Remember to make the object really small.

Was that stated correctly Darrel?:   "I want to know..."

I am doing more experimenting.  In my version-19.2-Deluxe, I found a Single "Spot"-light Luminance to "attach" to the Object.  See the attached little file.

-Alvin

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November 25, 2014, 04:10:12 PM
#27
Alvin
...

I want to know that Deluxe does use the objects CS location rather than the World CS. Remember to make the object really small.

Was that stated correctly Darrel?:   "I want to know..."

I am doing more experimenting.  In my version-19.2-Deluxe, I found a Single "Spot"-light Luminance to "attach" to the Object.  See the attached little file.

-Alvin

I would like to know, sorry  :-[..... as I would find it strange that Deluxe Surface Objects would be different to Pro Surface Objects..

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* November 25, 2014, 04:27:39 PM
#28
Alvin

Have you tried the settings I changed for the 2AV G 2 17 SBL ASR White Luminance

I changed the intensity to 3000 from 60 when I was experimenting.

I want to know that Deluxe does use the objects CS location rather than the World CS. Remember to make the object really small.

In my "Den Desk" Drawing, a 1"-radius Sphere placed 2" below that middle-shelf (just below where the "puck-light" Group is) with your changed  "2AV G 2 17 SBL ASR White Luminance" does not seem to come "from"(Location) or "to" anywhere near the Location or To reflected in its Properties (Location= 0,0,0; To=0,0,0; Equator Zero=1,0,1).  I set the Intensity to 10000, because I wasn't seeing illumination.

It seems to be offset something like X=-60", Y=-60", Z=-40"... something like that.  It's shown below.  The only Light or Luminance that is on is the above-mentioned Luminance assigned to the Sphere, which is Selected.
--For reference:  The current UCS is World, and you can see the UCS icon position under the desk.

-Alvin

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November 25, 2014, 04:35:08 PM
#29
Are you assigning the Luminance to the disc in the group? This Object is not good for it as I could not get anything from it.

Try a small simple box Alvin.

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* November 25, 2014, 04:38:19 PM
#30
Alvin

Have you tried the settings I changed for the 2AV G 2 17 SBL ASR White Luminance

I changed the intensity to 3000 from 60 when I was experimenting.

I want to know that Deluxe does use the objects CS location rather than the World CS. Remember to make the object really small.

In the "AlvinLuminanceTest...2" Drawing (attached and screen-capture below), the Sphere has your (Darrel's) "2AV G 2 17 SBL ASR White Luminance" assigned to it, Intensity=60.

The illumination, including its "from" & "to" locations, stayed the same whether the Sphere was a 1" radius or a 10" radius.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
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November 25, 2014, 04:43:45 PM
#31
Good

So if you move the sphere does the luminance move with it Alvin?


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TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.
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* November 25, 2014, 04:50:34 PM
#32
Are you assigning the Luminance to the disc in the group? This Object is not good for it as I could not get anything from it.

Try a small simple box Alvin.

Back to the "Den Desk" Drawing.  I deleted the Sphere.  Created a 1"square Box within the "disk" objects-- just below that shelf.  Assigned your  "2AV G 2 17 SBL ASR White Luminance" to it.

See the screen-capture below.  NOW that sucker is actually at what appears to be its Location setting in its Luminance/Light Properties, relative to World coordinates, not the Object's coordinates.

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


November 25, 2014, 04:55:30 PM
#33
It could be because you created the box within the group.

It could also be that Deluxe does not like luminance's grouped.

In Pro RedSDK Luminances do not work within a group.

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Daz...
V2018 64-Bit & 32 Bit Platinum Edition
RedSDK Only in 64 bit & 32 bit = RedSDK & Lightworks
TurboCAD user since V3 and Turbocad 3D V1.
OS Windows10 Pro 64bit Lenovo W701 Laptop, 24GB Ram, 2 x 128 SSD harddrives, NVIDIA Quadro FX 2800M Graphics, Intel i7 CPU...


* November 25, 2014, 04:59:30 PM
#34
Good

So if you move the sphere does the luminance move with it Alvin?

In the "AlvinLuminanceTest...3" Drawing, yes, when I move the Sphere, the Luminance moves with it.  The Luminiance is that "2AV G 2 17 SBL ASR White Luminance" (Intensity=60).

In the screen-capture below, I moved in only in the X-direction, 40".  (there is also an Ambient and Headlight on)

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 25, 2014, 05:01:28 PM
#35
It could be because you created the box within the group.

It could also be that Deluxe does not like luminance's grouped.

In Pro RedSDK Luminances do not work within a group.

No, I didn't create the little Box within the Group.  I Exploded the Group first; deleted the Sphere; then inserted the Box.

When I wrote "(I) Created a 1"square Box within the "disk" objects..."  I just meant the position.

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 25, 2014, 05:26:04 PM
#36
I think-- and this is just a wild hunch-- that the problem I am having might be with this particular "Den Desk" file.

It came to me through a Pro version, and every time I open it, I get the Warning reminding me of that.
I tried Copy/Pasting the contents into a New V19-Deluxe session, but this issue with the Objects' Luminance location persisted.

Maybe I can try replicating this Drawing-- from scratch-- and see if I can't get the Luminance locations to make some sense, and behave like my "AlvinLuminanceTest..." file.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 25, 2014, 06:18:42 PM
#37
I think-- and this is just a wild hunch-- that the problem I am having might be with this particular "Den Desk" file.

It came to me through a Pro version, and every time I open it, I get the Warning reminding me of that.
I tried Copy/Pasting the contents into a New V19-Deluxe session, but this issue with the Objects' Luminance location persisted.

Maybe I can try replicating this Drawing-- from scratch-- and see if I can't get the Luminance locations to make some sense, and behave like my "AlvinLuminanceTest..." file.

-Alvin

Hunch wrong.  Still having same or similar issues with a brand new, from scratch, model of that "Den Desk".
Although, the issues are intermittent now.  I can sometimes get the Objects' Luminances to behave as they should.  Move them around for some experimenting, and...  things sometimes go wrong.

I'll work with it some more to see if I figure out a rhyme-or-reason.

 -Alvin
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 06:20:45 PM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 25, 2014, 07:08:16 PM
#38
I think I've got it, at least partly.

In Deluxe, the correct Location parameter of a Point or Spot Luminance is the position of the Center of Extents of the object at the time it is created. After correctly assigning a Luminance, you can move the object around and the "light" will move with it. For a Spotlight's To parameter, you can use the same X and Y coordinates as its Location, and set the Z coordinate somewhat smaller than the Location Z. The light will then shine directly along the negative Z direction of the object, and you can aim it by rotating the object.

To simplify adding new Luminances to a drawing, I'd suggest creating each corresponding object (one at a time) at (0,0,0), and use this value as the Location for any new Luminance you assign.

...Now I think Alvin's Den Desk drawing isn't screwed up, after all. I just applied my own suggestion in that drawing, assigning a new Goniometric Luminance to a new object created at (0,0,0)and moved to the location of his original light, and it seems to work just fine.

Henry H
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 07:43:26 PM by Henry Hubich »

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* November 26, 2014, 05:28:41 AM
#39
I think I've got it, at least partly.

In Deluxe, the correct Location parameter of a Point or Spot Luminance is the position of the Center of Extents of the object at the time it is created. After correctly assigning a Luminance, you can move the object around and the "light" will move with it. For a Spotlight's To parameter, you can use the same X and Y coordinates as its Location, and set the Z coordinate somewhat smaller than the Location Z. The light will then shine directly along the negative Z direction of the object, and you can aim it by rotating the object.

To simplify adding new Luminances to a drawing, I'd suggest creating each corresponding object (one at a time) at (0,0,0), and use this value as the Location for any new Luminance you assign.

...Now I think Alvin's Den Desk drawing isn't screwed up, after all. I just applied my own suggestion in that drawing, assigning a new Goniometric Luminance to a new object created at (0,0,0)and moved to the location of his original light, and it seems to work just fine.

Henry H

Good find!   Thanks Henry.  I'll experiment with it in my version-19-Deluxe to corroborate what you wrote.  But it seems congruent with what I was experiencing last night when I was experimenting.

Please refer to this Post (Reply #5).  I am starting to think that TurboCAD-- in Deluxe-- handles Objects with Luminance assigned somewhat like a Group.

Also, this brings me back to my previous thought/suggestion:  If one is going to use the same Objects repeatedly in Drawings-- such as standard lighting-fixtures-- it might be good practice to create each one separately, in its own separate file, with Center of Extents at 0,0,0, and External Reference (XRef) them into Drawings.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 26, 2014, 05:47:47 AM
#40
I think I've got it, at least partly.
...
Henry H

I'm also wondering if the Objects' Workplane has anything to do with it.  When I select an Object that has Luminiance assigned; ->Workplane by World; ->Place on Workplane; and it moves* (even though I originally drew that sucker on the World Workplane), it makes me think that might have something to do with the Luminance light location.
  [*sometimes it moves, but its Reference Point stays put... way far away from the Object and its selection-box)

Further experimenting will shed some light on that.

~Alvin
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 05:58:43 AM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 26, 2014, 06:38:19 AM
#41
Unfortunately, in version-19-Deluxe, there seems to be no consistency in how the light in Objects with Luminance assigned behave, in regards to location and "to".

After further experimenting, no consistencies or predictable behavior can be determined.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 26, 2014, 10:15:15 AM
#42
Unfortunately, in version-19-Deluxe, there seems to be no consistency in how the light in Objects with Luminance assigned behave, in regards to location and "to".

After further experimenting, no consistencies or predictable behavior can be determined.

-Alvin

Works for me in v19 Deluxe, Alvin, if I follow my own suggestion about creating luminous objects at (0,0,0). The attached file contains four different objects, each with its own unique Luminance: Two Spots, one Point, and one Distant. I worked in the World CS and created each of these four objects at or very close to (0,0,0) -- which I did by starting each object with a COE Snap to a small sphere which I had previously moved to (0,0,0) just for this purpose. Each luminous object was then moved to a new location, and each one except the "Point" Luminance was also rotated to change the direction in which its light shines. (Note that the location of the hemisphere with "Distant" Luminance is immaterial; only its orientation affects its output. Interestingly, too, it casts its own shadow.) The luminous objects are made of "Glass," so it's not necessary to check the "Load to render luminance only" option, provided that Shadow transparency is set correctly.

Henry H


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* November 26, 2014, 10:27:04 AM
#43
...

Works for me in v19 Deluxe, Alvin, if I follow my own suggestion about creating luminous objects at (0,0,0). The attached file contains four different objects, each with its own unique Luminance: Two Spots, one Point, and one Distant. I worked in the World CS and created each of these four objects at or very close to (0,0,0) -- which I did by starting each object with a COE Snap to a small sphere which I had previously moved to (0,0,0) just for this purpose. Each luminous object was then moved to a new location, and each one except the "Point" Luminance was also rotated to change the direction in which its light shines. (Note that the location of the hemisphere with "Distant" Luminance is immaterial; only its orientation affects its output. Interestingly, too, it casts its own shadow.) The luminous objects are made of "Glass," so it's not necessary to check the "Load to render luminance only" option, provided that Shadow transparency is set correctly.

Henry H

I'll study and work with your Drawing.  Thanks Henry.

Do you believe-- in V19-Deluxe-- that it is necessary to create the Object such that its COE [Center of Extents] is at 0,0,0, or can it be created on the World Workplane, sort of anywhere, then moved to 0,0,0, then assign the Luminance.

What I'm getting at here is:  I don't want to have to calculate in my head, when Drawing a certain-sized Object, where I have to start the thing in order to get its COE at 0,0,0.

~Alvin

p.s.:  I could have sworn that I was doing what you are doing with not the same results.  Moving some Objects-- with certain Luminance lights-- was not consistently moving the luminance with it.  I guess I'll just try again.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 10:30:25 AM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 26, 2014, 10:38:59 AM
#44
...
Works for me in v19 Deluxe, Alvin,...
...
Henry H

When I open your file Henry, in V19-Deluxe, I get the TC Message shown below.  Makes me think that the Drawing wasn't started in a Deluxe version.  If that's the case, it's not like comparing apples-to-apples.

Did you-- and, if so, how much did you-- create some of these Objects in a Pro version.

Thanks Henry  ~Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 26, 2014, 10:50:10 AM
#45
...
Works for me in v19 Deluxe, Alvin,...
...
Henry H

When I open your file Henry, in V19-Deluxe, I get the TC Message shown below.  Makes me think that the Drawing wasn't started in a Deluxe version.  If that's the case, it's not like comparing apples-to-apples.

Did you-- and, if so, how much did you-- create some of these Objects in a Pro version.

Thanks Henry  ~Alvin

All done in v19 Deluxe, Alvin. Just to be sure, I saved it in v18 format; opened with no problems in v18 Deluxe; rendered there just fine; saved from v18; reopened and rendered again in v18 with no problems; opened and rendered the v18 file in v20 Deluxe with no problems.

Henry H

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* November 26, 2014, 11:03:19 AM
#46
"What I'm getting at here is:  I don't want to have to calculate in my head, when Drawing a certain-sized Object, where I have to start the thing in order to get its COE at 0,0,0."

Me neither, Alvin. To get around that, I create a small sphere and move it to (0,0,0). Then, when I want to create an object that'll have a Luminance, I snap to the Center of Extents of that small sphere to start the new object. In most cases, the COE of that new object won't be exactly at (0,0,0), but it'll be close enough if the new object is fairly small.

The alternative is to create the new object anyplace at all, then -- before doing anything else with it -- assign a new Luminance to the new thingie and plug the thingie's coordinates into the Location parameter of the new Luminance. This is probably easier than creating the new object at (0,0,0), but the drawback is that you have to create a brand-new Luminance for each new object.

Henry H

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* November 26, 2014, 11:06:16 AM
#47
Like I say, just inconsistencies.

I worked with your Drawing Henry, and it behaved as it should.

Then I went back to my "2nd Den Desk" Drawing, which I created from scratch last night.  Very basic and simple.
>The bottom of the legs of the Workplane are centered around-- equidistant from-- 0,0,0 World CS.
>CS=World
>Inserted a Sphere, Luminance assigned beforehand, using your Single/"Spot_White" Luminance.  First Snap=0,0,0; Diameter=1"
>Of course, since it is on the floor, no illumination visible.
>I moved the Sphere, Middle-Snapping to the front-edge of that middle shelf.  Result: No spotlight on the counter-top; a little weird something was visible.
>Turned off or deleted all lights and Objects with Luminance.
>Pitch black, except: (This is odd; I hope you can offer an explanation) The sphere itself was illuminated.  A little white ball in the darkness.
>So I figured, "heck, I'll go into that Luminance Properties and lower the location a little, and lower the 'To' correspondingly"... just to get the light out of the Sphere.
>Sure enough, in the black darkness, there is a little white glowing Sphere and it's Spot illumination on the counter-top.

?

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 26, 2014, 11:12:32 AM
#48
"What I'm getting at here is:  I don't want to have to calculate in my head, when Drawing a certain-sized Object, where I have to start the thing in order to get its COE at 0,0,0."

Me neither, Alvin. To get around that, I create a small sphere and move it to (0,0,0). Then, when I want to create an object that'll have a Luminance, I snap to the Center of Extents of that small sphere to start the new object. In most cases, the COE of that new object won't be exactly at (0,0,0), but it'll be close enough if the new object is fairly small.

The alternative is to create the new object anyplace at all, then -- before doing anything else with it -- assign a new Luminance to the new thingie and plug the thingie's coordinates into the Location parameter of the new Luminance. This is probably easier than creating the new object at (0,0,0), but the drawback is that you have to create a brand-new Luminance for each new object.

Henry H

Yes, creating "a brand-new Luminance for each new object" is what I was hoping wasn't necessary with my initial query, this Topic.  I had to think that all you rendering-guys weren't doing that.

I had an idea while reading your Post.  Attends to the 0,0,0 thing-- getting a newly-drawn Object to have its COE at 0,0,0 easily enough.

>Draw the Object on the World Workplane anywhere.  Select it, its Reference Point will be at the default COE.  Move it to 0,0,0.

>Now simply re-draw the Object, using that previously Inserted/moved one to Snap to.
>Delete the first Object.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* November 26, 2014, 11:18:06 AM
#49
Like I say, just inconsistencies....
>Pitch black, except: (This is odd; I hope you can offer an explanation) The sphere itself was illuminated.  A little white ball in the darkness.
...
-Alvin

I figured out why my Sphere appeared to be "glowing in the black darkness".
It's Material's Reflectance Shader is "Lit Appearance".  And those sharp folks at Lightworks made it "glow" even in the dark.

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)