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Intersection circle and line snap doesn't work
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April 20, 2014, 08:52:57 AM
I'm working on learning Metric drawings and ran into a small issue; Draw a 5 meter circle, draw a horizontal line 30% up from the bottom that intersects the circle as a guide then turn on snap intersection and try to draw a line at the intersection of the horizontal line and the circle. I end up with an intersection point that is 0.89mm outside of the circle, I can not get the intersection at exactly the line and the circle.
So what am I doing wrong?
 

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April 20, 2014, 09:47:16 AM
#1
I added a double line in place of the horizontal line and trimmed it to fit the circle, the trim operation left lines sticking outside of the circle. I set the distance between the double line at the height of one grid spacing (.078m) but when I zoom in and look the double line is .0001m short of the grid yet the dimension tool says it is .078000!

Metric, maybe I'm just too old. :-[

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* April 20, 2014, 10:06:16 AM
#2
I added a double line in place of the horizontal line and trimmed it to fit the circle, the trim operation left lines sticking outside of the circle. I set the distance between the double line at the height of one grid spacing (.078m) but when I zoom in and look the double line is .0001m short of the grid yet the dimension tool says it is .078000!

Metric, maybe I'm just too old. :-[

I can't open your file with my version-19 Kangus.
But for one thing:  I would advise checking the Scale value in your Dimensions->Properties->Units/Tolerance.
It reads like you might have it set to 1000 or something.

____
Are you sure you want to work in Meters (m), not Millimeters (mm).
Unless your doing a ball-field, or a tract-map, or something... I don't see many metric users here using Meters.

Setting your Modelspace Drawing Space Units to the Metric System, Millimeters (mm) with a precision of 2 to 4 ought to serve you.
Remember:  1 Millimeter is 1/25.4th of an inch... pretty small... unless you're splitting atoms.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 10:08:54 AM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* April 20, 2014, 10:16:17 AM
#3
It might be best if your Drawing's Space Units setting (Units) matches your "just-checking"-Dimensions' Units.  Those Dimensions' Units/Tolerance Units set to "By Drawing" (or otherwise matching Drawing Space Units) and the Scale set to 1.

For now.

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* April 20, 2014, 11:00:08 AM
#4
Alvin - here is a v19 file, although saved from pro its only 2D so should open in deluxe.

Kangus - sorry to ask but are you sure the grid on your system is .0078, as it shows as .0098 set in grid properties when I open your file, I checked the first file for intersect but couldn't find any problem - you have a point object snapped perfectly at the intersection of the line and circle.

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April 20, 2014, 12:48:19 PM
#5
I tossed everything out and started fresh;
model space set to 1:10
Space Units system metric units cm with mm for line widths precision 4 decimal

Dimensions Units by drawing, format decimal scale 1 round off .0001 precision 4 Alternate units " decimal scale 0.393701 round off .0001 precision 3
Scale : .39370078740158" = 1.00000000000001 cm but is shouldn't mater, my precision is 4 not 6

I saved as TC 18 for your review.
I still can not use intersection or apparent intersection to snap to exactly the line and circle and the Trim function does not trim to the circle.
 :o


 

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* April 20, 2014, 12:53:33 PM
#6
...
Space Units system metric units cm ...
...

I would still suggest Millimeters (mm).

I haven't come across one Drawing from one Canadian, European, Aussie, So. African, ... --whomever/wherever fellow-TurboCADer on these Forums-- that uses Centimeters (cm) for professional work.

I guess it depends on what you intend to be drawing in your switching from the English system to Metric.

What do you foresee yourself mostly drawing when you get accustomed to using the Metric system in TurboCAD Kangus?

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* April 20, 2014, 03:38:09 PM
#7
I tossed everything out and started fresh;
model space set to 1:10
Space Units system metric units cm with mm for line widths precision 4 decimal

Dimensions Units by drawing, format decimal scale 1 round off .0001 precision 4 Alternate units " decimal scale 0.393701 round off .0001 precision 3
Scale : .39370078740158" = 1.00000000000001 cm but is shouldn't mater, my precision is 4 not 6

I saved as TC 18 for your review.
I still can not use intersection or apparent intersection to snap to exactly the line and circle and the Trim function does not trim to the circle.
 :o


Extend the double line to the circle ,the intersection snap should work now then cap the ends if you want.

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April 20, 2014, 04:07:44 PM
#8
I took the double line outside of the circle and trimmed it with the same results, 3.9mm over or .15" so a hammer works I guess, my first try at meters was .17"

Attached is the MM layout fir TC18, at 5000 mm the numbers are big but it did allow me to zoom in more, the first try at meters was for small numbers, 5 not 500 or 5000, this is the advantage of metric right? Easy conversion, not having to worry about yard, foot, inch, fractions, mile, nautical mile, roman mile, my finger length.... just kick the decimal point around and life is good. :o

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* April 20, 2014, 04:21:56 PM
#9
I took the double line outside of the circle and trimmed it with the same results, 3.9mm over or .15" so a hammer works I guess, my first try at meters was .17"

Attached is the MM layout fir TC18, at 5000 mm the numbers are big but it did allow me to zoom in more, the first try at meters was for small numbers, 5 not 500 or 5000, this is the advantage of metric right? Easy conversion, not having to worry about yard, foot, inch, fractions, mile, nautical mile, roman mile, my finger length.... just kick the decimal point around and life is good. :o

In the case of say... buildings, everything being precise and/or rounded-off to the nearest 1-millimter is good enough, and really the only thing practical.
Just as in the English system, 1/16" is as precise as we need to be for building construction.
No decimals needed if you work in Millimeters and make everything precise and/or rounded-off to the nearest Millimeter (mm).

Now... if you're talking about machining very fine, meticulous, orthoscopic surgical devices... that may be a different story.

I have seen most construction-plans in Metric don't even bother with the "mm" appendage.  They just state it somewhere in the Drawing that everything is in Millimeters.  Dimensions such as a ridge-height of "8650" is common.  Or wall-lengths of "10000".  Very clean; very uncluttered.

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


April 20, 2014, 05:02:37 PM
#10
If it's broke fix it:

I just did the same in inch, works fine, the intersection tool works, the trim tool works, there is no over lap or what I have started to call it "ops".
As far as saying it's close enough, if your milling a stainless steel  I beam that fits across a 16 foot span I'm sure the owner will not like all his people carrying 20 pound hammers.

The fact is the Inch version works, the metric is broken.

I tried a small circle or 200mm and was 0.09mm off so there is a rounding error that accumulates as the mm go up, at 5000 it was 1.95mm

At least that's my conclusion, if someone can find a way to get the intersection snap  on a circle to work using metric let me know.

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* April 20, 2014, 05:07:46 PM
#11
I took the double line outside of the circle and trimmed it with the same results, 3.9mm over or .15" so a hammer works I guess, my first try at meters was .17"

Attached is the MM layout fir TC18, at 5000 mm the numbers are big but it did allow me to zoom in more, the first try at meters was for small numbers, 5 not 500 or 5000, this is the advantage of metric right? Easy conversion, not having to worry about yard, foot, inch, fractions, mile, nautical mile, roman mile, my finger length.... just kick the decimal point around and life is good. :o


Kangus,
use the extend to line tool, did you see my post? There are no limitations or problems with the trim command in the platinum versions that I'm aware of.Attached is a before and after with your recent posted file.
also you're asking for trouble performing line commands with those linear dimension extension lines overlapping. I would put the dimensions on a separate layer and turn that layer off then perform your operations or shorten up those extension lines.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 05:09:36 PM by Dean »

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April 20, 2014, 05:27:41 PM
#12
I didn't have dimensions on the drawings until after I finished.

But this isn't the issue, the issue is the under laying grid must be off or something; if you draw a 10" circle and add a line across it 1/3 of the way down from the top and try to snap to the that intersection it works, start a new drawing in metric, draw a 254mm circle, add the line and try to snap to the same intersection you can't.
Works in inch doesn't in metric, the larger the circle that bigger the snap error.

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* April 20, 2014, 05:42:49 PM
#13
I didn't have dimensions on the drawings until after I finished.

But this isn't the issue, the issue is the under laying grid must be off or something; if you draw a 10" circle and add a line across it 1/3 of the way down from the top and try to snap to the that intersection it works, start a new drawing in metric, draw a 254mm circle, add the line and try to snap to the same intersection you can't.
Works in inch doesn't in metric, the larger the circle that bigger the snap error.

In 'Options' open Native Draw and select GDI.... This fixed the precision problem.

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DonCW

2017 Platinum
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* April 20, 2014, 05:52:49 PM
#14
I didn't have dimensions on the drawings until after I finished.

But this isn't the issue, the issue is the under laying grid must be off or something; if you draw a 10" circle and add a line across it 1/3 of the way down from the top and try to snap to the that intersection it works, start a new drawing in metric, draw a 254mm circle, add the line and try to snap to the same intersection you can't.
Works in inch doesn't in metric, the larger the circle that bigger the snap error.

Works for me, check this video out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZaLceLV05k

I see Don posted. It could be an RedSdk issue
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 06:03:18 PM by Dean »

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* April 20, 2014, 05:53:30 PM
#15
in addition to the comments from others, I'd add - don't trim double lines to a curve - I'm guessing its a bug, if using trim to a curve then use on single lines or an exploded double line.

Just my thoughts

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* April 20, 2014, 06:00:20 PM
#16
Andy,
 Using a double line works the same as using a single line as it is displayed in my video.

 :)
 oops, I was in Redsdk mode when I made that video
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 06:02:57 PM by Dean »

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* April 20, 2014, 06:14:31 PM
#17
Here's another video        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0yDMekuIU0     using a single line and double line intersecting the circle in RedSdk mode. I'm curious what Kangus is experiencing.  I'm able to intersection snap and trim.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 06:17:01 PM by Dean »

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* April 20, 2014, 06:55:29 PM
#18
Hi Dean, the attached is what I get in v20 when I trim a double line back to a circle, using win8 64bit, GDI mode (zoomed in to well over 10000%).

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* April 20, 2014, 07:20:49 PM
#19
Hi Dean, the attached is what I get in v20 when I trim a double line back to a circle, using win8 64bit, GDI mode (zoomed in to well over 10000%).
Hi Andy,
This is what I get win7 32 bit. I gave up on 64 bit. I only use it for renders that can't render in 32 bit. Someone else has to test it, could be a 64 bit or Win 8 issue?

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Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2019-2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21.Using Lightworks and Redsdk, Anilab lab 5. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100 and HP all in one desktop with Nvidia Geforce 210, open gl 3.3


April 20, 2014, 07:29:38 PM
#20
My new motto; Turn Off REDSDK. I get a flat tire I'm turning of REDSDK, if the sprinkler breaks I'm turning off REDSDK, I get spam, off goes REDSDK!

I tried the issue with 21 thinking the new version of REDSDK might help, nope, Nada, not happening.
Same problem, metric doesn't work; Do a simple horizontal line crossed by a vertical line and another line at 45 degrees crossing both than set snap to intersection and start playing, the "intersection moves around, never the same place. This is zoomed in pass being useful but it doesn't happen in English (imperial/inch) nor in GDI. The thing is there are three nations using "Imperial", US, Liberia, Myanmar, I want to move on.

Another fine weekend learning to turn off REDSDK!

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* April 20, 2014, 07:35:28 PM
#21
Hi Dean, the attached is what I get in v20 when I trim a double line back to a circle, using win8 64bit, GDI mode (zoomed in to well over 10000%).

It gets even worse if you have "End Caps" checked.  (make your Double-Line with a large "Separation", in relation to the Circle diameter-- but not larger than the Circle diameter-- to really see what I mean)

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* April 20, 2014, 07:36:49 PM
#22
My new motto; Turn Off REDSDK. I get a flat tire I'm turning of REDSDK, if the sprinkler breaks I'm turning off REDSDK, I get spam, off goes REDSDK!

That killed me ;D!  Thanks for that Kangus.

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* April 20, 2014, 07:53:46 PM
#23
Thanks Alvin, yep that's not exactly what one would expect to happen.

Dean, I doubt its win8, but as you say it could be a 64bit issue, I'll drop IMSI support an E-mail and see what they think.

Andy

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* April 20, 2014, 07:54:15 PM
#24
Hi Dean, the attached is what I get in v20 when I trim a double line back to a circle, using win8 64bit, GDI mode (zoomed in to well over 10000%).

It gets even worse if you have "End Caps" checked.  (make your Double-Line with a large "Separation", in relation to the Circle diameter-- but not larger than the Circle diameter-- to really see what I mean)

Alvin, that might be true for you in your deluxe version but might not be true for others. Using the platinum version ,for some reason I don't find any problems with trimming a double line to a circle and or snapping to the intersection but that doesn't help Kangus. There must be something else going on. I think Henry said it best by saying that you find what works and stick with it. Turbocad platinum is huge!

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* April 20, 2014, 08:04:03 PM
#25
It gets even worse if you have "End Caps" checked.  (make your Double-Line with a large "Separation", in relation to the Circle diameter-- but not larger than the Circle diameter-- to really see what I mean)

Alvin, that might be true for you in your deluxe version but might not be true for others....

Good point.

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---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* April 20, 2014, 08:22:24 PM
#26
Thanks Alvin, yep that's not exactly what one would expect to happen.

Dean, I doubt its win8, but as you say it could be a 64bit issue, I'll drop IMSI support an E-mail and see what they think.

Andy

I tried it V21 32 and 64 bit and when I zoomed wayyyyyy in, the double line was off the circle but the "shrink/extend line" tool fixed it. have you tried the "shrink/extend line tool after the trim?
V20 the line was on the circle after the trim but it does appear that the wider the double line is it might appear to be off the circle when zoomed in un-realistic percent.

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* April 20, 2014, 08:35:25 PM
#27
Here's what I get (below) in version-19.2 Deluxe (Build 54.2), Windows 7 when I Shrink/Extend the Double-Line to the Circle, after it was "trimmed" using the Trim Tool, with the Circle being the "cutting edge".

On this Circle/Double-Line/Trim thing... I will just opt for workarounds, myself.

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* April 20, 2014, 09:21:18 PM
#28
Here's the results of what I get using v.20 Platinum set to GDI.

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2017 Platinum
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* April 21, 2014, 03:26:59 AM
#29
Here's the results of what I get using v.20 Platinum set to GDI.

Hi Don,
 I get the same results as you, it works in V20 platinum.

"On this Circle/Double-Line/Trim thing... I will just opt for workarounds, myself"
Alvin. ??? your picture is showing that it worked, the lines meet at the trim point.

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* April 21, 2014, 03:35:54 AM
#30
I sent a support ticket to IMSI (before I had to go to bed after my last post) because like Dean I tried it in v21pro and got same results, whilst zooming in far enough to see the gap may be unrealistic, it doesn't detract form the fact - with a 5000mm circle and a 250mm wide double line, intersect snap won't work for me after the trim (without the workarounds).

Using the extend does indeed fix the problem, but personally I'd consider it a bug as if one explodes the double line once so its a polyline before trimming everything is fine - intersect works, and extend tool is not needed - as a side note using multiline set to two works without any workaround.

Andy

 

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* April 21, 2014, 06:41:35 AM
#31
...
Alvin. ??? your picture is showing that it worked, the lines meet at the trim point.

Okay.  Thanks Dean.
I wouldn't have figured that the Shrink/Extend Tool was designed to "take out" that portion of the Circle-- the portion between the "end-points" of the Double-Line.
Kind of cool that it does though-- if one is expecting it.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 06:51:24 AM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


April 21, 2014, 09:35:15 AM
#32
For all;
While there is "a" or "many" "work-around" for working in metric that is not the issue, the number of issues that have "work-around" solutions is the issue. If you have to start referring to a "Work-Around" cheat sheet in order to use this product is a problem. I don't work with TC for periods of time so when I do I have to relearn what has been forgotten but having to remember undocumented bugs that have "a"  or "many" "Work-Around" is not productive to say the least. So far most if not all problems I have run into relate to REDSDK so why hasn't there been more done on testing REDSDK before releasing new versions?

Back to work, I did gain the information I needed along the "REDSDK" trail; I kind of get the "The Shining" feeling now when I think REDSDK.

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April 22, 2014, 12:20:35 PM
#33
Quote
So far most if not all problems I have run into relate to REDSDK so why hasn't there been more done on testing REDSDK before releasing new versions?

I asked that same question (in much more detail), and had my post removed by the 'moderator', probably because I also gave the answer to the question. I did not use inflammatory or derogatory language or words, but I am sure the truth stung. As long as we don't discuss the elephant in the room in too much detail, or point out the obvious reasons said elephant is even in the room, our posts will left up. Leadership is such a difficult task.

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April 22, 2014, 03:39:25 PM
#34
On a bright note I did find that setting the drawing units to Angstrom and drawing a circle with a radius of .0001 angstrom worked but then my head exploded  ???

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TurboCad V12~V201x Platinum Pro Edition + CAM Plug-In +  Surface Modeling + Survey Coordinates RedSDK
Production: W10 Pro V 1809 OSB 17763.165 I7 12GB NVIDIA Quadro
TC2019 Test Machine Dual Xeon 16GB W10 Pro V 1809 OSB 17763.165 Nvidia Quadro 416.78


May 14, 2014, 01:03:43 PM
#35
On 4/21 they posted the "fix": (it must have gone into my SPAM catch basin)
To see the intersection place in Redsdk mode you need to regenerate view. For that: make maximum zoom of intersection place and press “F5” key / select “Redraw” from View menu.

to which I replied:

Using imperial measurement setup I do not have this issue, I do not have to hit F5 before I place a point/line/circle at an intersection.

While this is a workaround when will it be fixed?

Logged
TurboCad V12~V201x Platinum Pro Edition + CAM Plug-In +  Surface Modeling + Survey Coordinates RedSDK
Production: W10 Pro V 1809 OSB 17763.165 I7 12GB NVIDIA Quadro
TC2019 Test Machine Dual Xeon 16GB W10 Pro V 1809 OSB 17763.165 Nvidia Quadro 416.78