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v.20 Join Polyline tool
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* April 03, 2013, 02:53:03 AM
Does anybody know if the polyline tool in V.20 will be changed back to work as it does in V.18. It's certainly easier to select the entire object and click finish as opposed to the method being used presently.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 03:03:07 AM by DonCW »

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DonCW

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* April 03, 2013, 08:45:39 AM
#1
not as far as I can tell, you can't drag a fence around objects and then select join polyline, (well you can but the fence disappears and you have to select things one by one ), the auto join feature still doesn't show which objects are included in the join poly you have to click the result to find out.

I'm using 64 bit version.

Andy
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 08:35:06 PM by Andy H »

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* April 03, 2013, 10:29:01 AM
#2
Several people tried to explain to the bosses how we used the original Join Polyline tool and failed. I doubt if this tool will ever be as good as it used to be.

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John R.

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* April 03, 2013, 12:10:40 PM
#3
Several people tried to explain to the bosses how we used the original Join Polyline tool and failed. I doubt if this tool will ever be as good as it used to be.

 The join polyline tool is used in a large part of my drawings, ah well, I guess I'll stay with v.18. 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 08:38:13 PM by DonCW »

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DonCW

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* April 05, 2013, 04:00:16 PM
#4
My recollection is that the desired use case of of selecting by rectangle any objects did work in the past but it was never then intention of the join polyline tool.

The definition of the join polyline is - "Connects two or more separate objects, connected at their endpoints, into a single-object polyline. Objects that overlap cannot be joined."

That said what is your exact use case and desired goal? Examples help :)

« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 04:03:08 PM by Dave Taylor »

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* April 05, 2013, 05:28:43 PM
#5
My recollection is that the desired use case of of selecting by rectangle any objects did work in the past but it was never then intention of the join polyline tool.

The definition of the join polyline is - "Connects two or more separate objects, connected at their endpoints, into a single-object polyline. Objects that overlap cannot be joined."

That said what is your exact use case and desired goal? Examples help :)

Hi Dave.

I would say, first of all, the AutoJoining being the default active until we de-activate it is an issue.  I believe the general-consensus is that we don't even want AutoJoining most of the time- or at all (we'd like to choose our own lines to Join, please).  It's very seldom that I want to Join all the lines that qualify for the procedure (all Lines that connect by their endpoint and do not overlap one another).  Sometimes I have to make the decision:  "What will be faster- I can AutoJoin all these lines, then Split Entity and Explode what I didn't want Joined; or I can de-activate AutoJoin and go through clicking one line [of twenty?...thirty?....] at a time."

Secondly, if you (by you, I mean the collective development team at IMSI/Design-TurboCAD) do not want to enable the ability to pre-select-  using the Select Tool in conjunction with the Shift-key or using the Selection Window-  we'd like to see (when the Join Polyline Tool is active) the ability to select the lines we want to join with the same functional-ability as the Select Tool (i.e.: The Select Window; with or without Open Window Mode; and/or using the Shift-key to select multiple lines to join).  Of course, this is in conjunction with the paragraph above and not having AutoJoin as the (seemingly-assertively-activated) default.

Plus:  There is nothing highlighted during the Join Polyline/AutoJoin process, as there used to be when we were able to pre-select the lines, using the Select Tool.  Currently, we have to just guess that what is to be AutoJoined- or what was AutoJoined- is what we want(ed) joined, or select the Polyline that we think was the result of the Join Polyline and see if it was indeed what we were trying to achieve.

----
Nutshell:  Make the Join Polyline Tool behave more like the (unintentional?) way it used to with the Select Tool:  Entities to be joined highlight before/during the process; no AutoJoining (unless we purposely go out of our way to select such option); ability to Select and multi-Select Lines to be joined, using Shift-key, Open Window Mode, and select-Window; and the resultant Polyline stays highlighted until we click somewhere else on the desktop or tap the "Escape" key or click "Cancel". (not sure everyone will be in agreement on this very last request, regarding "... the resultant Polyline stays highlighted...")

----
I'm not talking version 20 here, just version 19.  I haven't downloaded, installed, or worked with 20.  Maybe in 20 some of the above has been addressed.

-Alvin
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 03:00:21 PM by Alvin Gregorio »

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
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* April 05, 2013, 08:15:24 PM
#6
My recollection is that the desired use case of of selecting by rectangle any objects did work in the past but it was never then intention of the join polyline tool.

The definition of the join polyline is - "Connects two or more separate objects, connected at their endpoints, into a single-object polyline. Objects that overlap cannot be joined."

That said what is your exact use case and desired goal? Examples help :)

I often build a 2D profile a little piece at a time -- a line here, an arc, another couple of lines -- until I'm satisfied with the shape, and I'm always careful to make endpoints coincide without overlap. I'd like to be able to select all these components by dragging a selection rectangle or by drawing a fence and then click the Join Polyline tool and -- poof! -- they're converted into a Polyline. The program should be able to determine whether a 2D Polyline or a 3D Polyline is appropriate and create the entity without the user having to specify a choice. I can live with having to click the Finish flag if the programmers insist, but I'd rather not be bothered.

The problems I see with the v20 JP tool are these:

1. If Auto Join is not enabled, one must click each component, one at a time. I find this option unacceptable and never use it.

2. Regardless of whether Auto Join option is enabled, there is no feedback to indicate the success or failure of the operation.

Henry H

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* April 05, 2013, 09:23:59 PM
#7
My recollection is that the desired use case of of selecting by rectangle any objects did work in the past but it was never then intention of the join polyline tool.

The definition of the join polyline is - "Connects two or more separate objects, connected at their endpoints, into a single-object polyline. Objects that overlap cannot be joined."

That said what is your exact use case and desired goal? Examples help :)

Example: I've attached a very basic of hinge bracket that was on my desk, it's simply lines and arcs.  I started with v.7 and have bought nine versions since then. In every version it was a simple matter of selecting all components, click on Join Polyline the click the checkered flag to finish. In v.20 there's no indication the Auto - Join tool is working so I assumed is wasn't. How can this new advanced tool be better than the on that actually works. That's only my opinion.

Thanks

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* April 21, 2013, 09:07:12 AM
#8
Well I would like to chime in here.  My entire business and livelyhood depends on successfully joining lines and arcs so that Partworks (tool path program) can generate g-code for us to NC cut parts out.  I CANNOT OVERSTATE how important this basic CAD operation is to my business.

Not only has the use of this tool been compromised but the results appear flawed as well.  I find poly lines I successfully joined in Tcad revealed as not so when Partworks attempts to run a path against the line.  Going back in Tcad painstaking inspection shows small gaps and even crossed arcs (end points not meeting.). Why don't I get an error message telling me it cannot join?  Instead I think all is well only to find later - at a different point in our work flow - that the line grouping is bogus.

We generate revenue by creating and using accurate geometry.  The investment I have made in TurboCad is enormous - so to have critical functions so flippantly screwed with is insulting and costly.

Someone find a way to fix this.




 

« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 05:35:26 PM by dugalbood »

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* April 21, 2013, 05:38:33 PM
#9
One last observation - when Henry and Don are dissatisfied can there be any question that things are screwed up?

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April 22, 2013, 01:03:59 AM
#10

Hi Dave,

I agree with the substance of Alvin's reply - we need a usable Join Polyline Tool - having to guess what is going on is helpful?  ???

Regards Tim

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* April 22, 2013, 05:51:31 AM
#11
The old tool didn't announce a failure either, selection afterwards by picking (not fencing) was and is the only way to find what segments are connected.  What gives more confidence that they're successfully joined in old versions vs. new?  Seems to me that that's the only difference between the two, the end result is the same.

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April 22, 2013, 07:48:55 AM
#12
Well I thought it was just me as I have tried all the variations suggested above at using Join Polyline works and can report an astonishing 90% failure rate.  Having used the routine extensively in previous versions quite happily, this is nor good but I suspect IMSI has not noticed the problem.

As a workaround, to stop wasting time trying to see whether the Join worked, I retrace it as a polyline and then tidy it up in Edit Mode.  Not good.

Has anybody reported this as a bug?

I agree with dugalbood's second post with bells on it.

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Colin Reid
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* April 22, 2013, 10:04:36 AM
#13

As a workaround, to stop wasting time trying to see whether the Join worked, I retrace it as a polyline and then tidy it up in Edit Mode.  Not good.

Colin, as your re-drawing it anyway - have you tried the chain polyline to check for breaks, its not perfect but as long as you start chaining at two known good joints it can show up errors without re-drawing everything.

attached uses Don's file which I added a break of less the 1/1000th mm, this tool can show problems which the auto join and the old window select won't show, one drawback is it you have to remove the original lines/arcs manually, and I've no idea how to change its colour from red (so no good if tracing red lines).

Andy

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* April 22, 2013, 06:37:05 PM
#14
I've never seen the tool fail, old or new, when segments meet.   Are those who're complaining saying that's changed? 

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April 23, 2013, 05:43:22 AM
#15
One of my earliest posts dealt with joining polylines and the answer and solution was that the lines did not meet at the ends precisely down to the highest zooming.  I do try and learn from my mistakes.

One other solution I have found is to shorten each component very slightly using split entity and then use Join Lines to close the gap.

So after posting yesterday I had to have another go trying to join two splines where one was a mirror of the other.  I then checked the ends at max magnification to see that they were coincident.  Three times I tried to join the splines.  First in the sequence suggested on screen.  Failed.  So I tried selecting both and then joining which sometimes works.  When that failed, I used the technique in Para 2.

It should not be this hard especially as it worked in previous versions using the second attempt.

Andy H

As I am invariably joining splines and/or lines drawn in one go I had never thought to check to see if there were minute breaks in them.  I will next time I need the tool.

Murray Dickinson

Yes, I am complaining something has changed.  I always go to maximum magnifications, turn No Snaps off. edit the line and pull the end box to join with the next line.

I have not thought of reporting it as a bug to IMSI because, frankly, overtime in the past I have always found a quick solution or workaround on these excellent forums and only rare success from IMSI after many days.

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Colin Reid
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* April 23, 2013, 07:38:42 AM
#16
What has changed for me is that I'm not allowed to use the Selection tool (i.e. Selection Window) to select the items I wish to join. Once they were selected, I could click on the Join Polyline tool and select Finish. One of the nice features in the original tool was the ability to select several 'sets' of objects to be joined with the Selection tool, then click on Join Polyline/Finish and it joined them all at the same time. This is no longer possible with the improved tool.

The other "improvement" is that the new Auto Join will join everything. In V18 it seemed that it was selective.

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April 23, 2013, 10:47:25 AM
#17
The biggest problem with the older tool was that you could create polylines that had gaps and overlapping segments.  This is avoided by using the autojoin function of the new tool.  I do agree that there should be some sort of visual cue letting you know something has happened, such as having the newly created polyline selected after it has joined. 

I have run into situations where some segments are not joined for seemingly no reason.  The problem is most likely with the profile and possibly my procedures used to create it and not the join polyline tool itself.  I have not been able to duplicate this problem on purpose.  Though I believe it may have something to do with either trimming arcs, snaps, or one of the segments having a different CS.

If somebody has an example they can easily recreate and have the join polyline tool fail to connect all of the segments, please send it to me so we can figure out where the problem lies.

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Rip Fowler
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* April 23, 2013, 12:47:33 PM
#18
Rip:
You've touched on an important issue - what are properties of a line or arc that cause the join-polyline command to have problems.  My most recent work around is to not join them at all in TurboCAD but use the join function in VCarve to accomplish this - it seems more robust and fault free.  But I still need to do this reliably within TurboCAD.   We do a fair amount of NC machining based on geometry originating in 3D models.  My preferred TurboCAD work flow would be to model in 3D then using the drafting tools create 2D geometry.  Explode said drafting views and then use these exploded lines to program against for NC path creation.  But I have found these exploded drafting lines to be problematic - to the point that I often draw over them rather than explode.  BUT THIS SEEMS STUPID AND A WASTE OF TIME.

Is there a way to strip arcs and lines of the extraneous information (baggage so to speak) that has cascaded down across all the various operations available in TCAD.  It seems this info - you mentioned objects with different CS - is likely the corrupting influence when joining.

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* April 23, 2013, 01:24:09 PM
#19
The biggest problem with the older tool was that you could create polylines that had gaps and overlapping segments.  This is avoided by using the autojoin function of the new tool.

That's not my experience Rip, if there are gaps the auto join just joins everything in both directions up to the gap and extrudes produces a sheet instead of a solid, yes the old way did the same thing, but I can't see how the new way is an improvement, no problem for me personally as I'm a hobby user (don't get paid for work stuff), and I'll stick with chain poly to check for gaps before joining.

Andy

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April 23, 2013, 01:34:58 PM
#20
Rip:
You've touched on an important issue - what are properties of a line or arc that cause the join-polyline command to have problems.  My most recent work around is to not join them at all in TurboCAD but use the join function in VCarve to accomplish this - it seems more robust and fault free.  But I still need to do this reliably within TurboCAD.   We do a fair amount of NC machining based on geometry originating in 3D models.  My preferred TurboCAD work flow would be to model in 3D then using the drafting tools create 2D geometry.  Explode said drafting views and then use these exploded lines to program against for NC path creation.  But I have found these exploded drafting lines to be problematic - to the point that I often draw over them rather than explode.  BUT THIS SEEMS STUPID AND A WASTE OF TIME.

Is there a way to strip arcs and lines of the extraneous information (baggage so to speak) that has cascaded down across all the various operations available in TCAD.  It seems this info - you mentioned objects with different CS - is likely the corrupting influence when joining.
That does sound like a waste of time. 

When joining polylines, do you use the autojoin option of the join polyline tool?

Could you send me an example that would fail in the CNC software?

support@imsidesign.com

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Rip Fowler
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April 23, 2013, 01:43:06 PM
#21
The biggest problem with the older tool was that you could create polylines that had gaps and overlapping segments.  This is avoided by using the autojoin function of the new tool.

That's not my experience Rip, if there are gaps the auto join just joins everything in both directions up to the gap and extrudes produces a sheet instead of a solid, yes the old way did the same thing, but I can't see how the new way is an improvement, no problem for me personally as I'm a hobby user (don't get paid for work stuff), and I'll stick with chain poly to check for gaps before joining.

Andy

Yes autojoin would work the same in the older tool, the only functional difference between the two tools is that you could select the segments before selecting the tool (using the older join polyline).  Many users either ignored or did not know of the autojoin option.  Unfortunately they would not know till much further down the road that the polyline had gaps or overlapping segments. 

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Rip Fowler
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* April 23, 2013, 02:33:10 PM
#22
So I guess getting the ability to "select first", then "Join" will never be available from now on.

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April 23, 2013, 02:53:05 PM
#23
So I guess getting the ability to "select first", then "Join" will never be available from now on.

No other tool in TurboCAD works that way so most likely not.  We could add the use of the super selector during segment selection, but I am unsure if there is a use case strong enough to outweigh the potential problems.

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Rip Fowler
IMSIDesign LLC


* April 23, 2013, 03:01:53 PM
#24
So I guess getting the ability to "select first", then "Join" will never be available from now on.

No other tool in TurboCAD works that way so most likely not.  We could add the use of the super selector during segment selection, but I am unsure if there is a use case strong enough to outweigh the potential problems.

Like my "nutshell" paragraph in my first Post on this (seemingly Hot) Topic:

"Nutshell:  Make the Join Polyline Tool behave more like the (unintentional?) way it used to with the Select Tool:  Entities to be joined highlight before/during the process; no AutoJoining (unless we purposely go out of our way to select such option); ability to Select and multi-Select Lines to be joined, using Shift-key, Open Window Mode, and select-Window; and the resultant Polyline stays highlighted until we click somewhere else on the desktop or tap the "Escape" key or click "Cancel". (not sure everyone will be in agreement on this very last request, regarding "... the resultant Polyline stays highlighted...")"

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
(mostly Residential Architectural 2D; no formal CAD Training; intermittent TurboCAD user since yr. 2000 [ver6.5])
---TurboCAD: V20.2PP(57.0)[as of 3/12/15]; V19DL(54.2); V11.2Pro; Windows-7-Pro/64-bit; Intel-Core-i3 CPU; 2.27ghz; 4GB RAM; Intel HD Graphics (CPU based)


* April 23, 2013, 03:12:38 PM
#25
So I guess getting the ability to "select first", then "Join" will never be available from now on.

No other tool in TurboCAD works that way so most likely not.  We could add the use of the super selector during segment selection, but I am unsure if there is a use case strong enough to outweigh the potential problems.

Select then Mirror Copy... Select then Linear Copy... Select then Array Copy.... etc.,... Select then Explode... Select then Group... need I go on?  ;D

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* April 23, 2013, 07:07:39 PM
#26
So I guess getting the ability to "select first", then "Join" will never be available from now on.

No other tool in TurboCAD works that way so most likely not.  We could add the use of the super selector during segment selection, but I am unsure if there is a use case strong enough to outweigh the potential problems.

Select then Mirror Copy... Select then Linear Copy... Select then Array Copy.... etc.,... Select then Explode... Select then Group... need I go on?  ;D

Yes...please do.

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DonCW

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April 24, 2013, 01:01:03 AM
#27

No other tool in TurboCAD works that way so most likely not.

    is that so?  Ummm, did I miss something?  ::)

Regards Tim

P.S. please read Alvin's post . . . above.

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* April 24, 2013, 05:48:12 AM
#28
So I guess getting the ability to "select first", then "Join" will never be available from now on.

No other tool in TurboCAD works that way so most likely not.  We could add the use of the super selector during segment selection, but I am unsure if there is a use case strong enough to outweigh the potential problems.

Select then Mirror Copy... Select then Linear Copy... Select then Array Copy.... etc.,... Select then Explode... Select then Group... need I go on?  ;D

Yes...please do.

My point was... there are many tools in TC where you select the objects before using the tool... and I listed just a few.

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April 24, 2013, 06:37:39 AM
#29
I have attached a file containing two splines.  I am sure that the ends of the curves are coincident as it is made by slitting the entity of a closed spline.  I tried the Join Polyline (JP) tool in 3 ways with the following results

1.  Clicked JP, selected the top and bottom curves and then the finish button.  Result - success (my first ever)

2.  Ctrl Z to ensure splines still separate.  Clicked the JP tool, selected both curves and pressed the autojoin button.  Result - failure.

3.  Checked the curves were still separate, selected the top curve and clicked the autojoin button.  Result - success (but how did it know to select the bottom curve to join - for me not intuitive).  I need to study more the autojoin and superselector functions.

4.  I did not bother to do it the old way of selecting the curves, clicking JP and then finish as Turbotech's post seem to make it clear it would not work (which 10% of the time before I posted it did) and would unlikely to again. 

Given the number of posts on this issue, it might in future versions and upgrades including a list for us poor punters on new and altered functions.  Shamefacedly I have to admit I did not look when I loaded TC20 but in my defence I do not ever expect functions to change.  If they do, as IMSI appears to have decided for good reasons, it cannot be difficult to tell us.

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Colin Reid
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April 24, 2013, 09:06:31 AM
#30
So I guess getting the ability to "select first", then "Join" will never be available from now on.

No other tool in TurboCAD works that way so most likely not.  We could add the use of the super selector during segment selection, but I am unsure if there is a use case strong enough to outweigh the potential problems.

Select then Mirror Copy... Select then Linear Copy... Select then Array Copy.... etc.,... Select then Explode... Select then Group... need I go on?  ;D

Yes...please do.

My point was... there are many tools in TC where you select the objects before using the tool... and I listed just a few.

But unlike the join polyline they require there to be an object selected before the tool can be activated. 

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* April 24, 2013, 09:32:58 AM
#31

But unlike the join polyline they require there to be an object selected before the tool can be activated.

Example:  Just minutes before I am Posting this, I had to completely "take apart" and move a bunch of lines that were connected at their endpoints, just so that I could use the Join Polyline Tool, and not have all the Lines Joined.

I also had to un-Select the aggressive, default "AutoJoin".  And... when I went one-by-one selecting each-and-every-Line I wanted Joined, nothing highlighted-- there was absolutely no indication as to what was being Joined and what the result of that Joining process was going to be or actually happened.

----
I (we?) can't see how you're not getting this and are seeming to rebutt and resist all of our input on this Topic (input which Dave Taylor asked for on April 6th, Reply #5, this Topic).

I (we?) are kinda' scratching our heads as to how you guys aren't getting what we are saying.

(I hope the above doesn't come across as too vitriolic; it's not intended that way-- just trying to help improve our TurboCAD)

-Alvin

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Alvin Gregorio
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* April 24, 2013, 09:42:11 AM
#32
So I guess getting the ability to "select first", then "Join" will never be available from now on.

No other tool in TurboCAD works that way so most likely not.  We could add the use of the super selector during segment selection, but I am unsure if there is a use case strong enough to outweigh the potential problems.

True... but the point is/was... you can select objects prior to using those tools... and same goes for the old Join Polyline tool.

Select then Mirror Copy... Select then Linear Copy... Select then Array Copy.... etc.,... Select then Explode... Select then Group... need I go on?  ;D

Yes...please do.

My point was... there are many tools in TC where you select the objects before using the tool... and I listed just a few.

But unlike the join polyline they require there to be an object selected before the tool can be activated.

True... but the point is/was... you can select objects prior to using those tools... and same goes for the old Join Polyline tool.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 04:30:27 PM by GregT »

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* April 24, 2013, 03:43:38 PM
#33
The first Turbo Cad product was v.7. Today I reloaded it to refresh my memory on how the join polyline worked then. Auto Join was available as shown in one of the screen shots, the other screenshot shows the Selector tool was also available. I don't know in which future version the checkered flag was added finish join. polyline. Since v.7 I've bought v10, v11, v12, v14, v15, v16, v17 & v18. Both options have been available thru all the listed versions. The point I have is, why change it now.
I've read this forum for as long as I've owned TC and don't ever recall reading complaints on the way join Polyline worked up until now.

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DonCW

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* April 24, 2013, 09:06:26 PM
#34
Can we agree to ask that a patch should select the contiguous polyline on completion, autojoin or manual?   Or the clicked segment, if it's a failure?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 09:22:46 PM by murray dickinson »

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* April 25, 2013, 05:58:31 PM
#35
Can we agree to ask that a patch should select the contiguous polyline on completion, autojoin or manual?   Or the clicked segment, if it's a failure?

Second the motion.

Henry H

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* April 25, 2013, 06:01:36 PM
#36
Can we agree to ask that a patch should select the contiguous polyline on completion, autojoin or manual?   Or the clicked segment, if it's a failure?

Sounds good to me Murray!!
Dave Taylor, do you agree.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 06:53:07 PM by DonCW »

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DonCW

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There's so much to learn and not much time left to learn it.


April 26, 2013, 04:41:21 AM
#37
DonCW

I agree and hope Turbotech reads my last paragraph as I did not mean to provoke such a lengthy forum clearly resulting from the lack of a warning  of a change it appears many do not want!

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regards
Colin Reid
TC2018 Pro Platinum 64 bit  + LW plugin on Win10 desktop and  Quad Intel i7 with 32GB RAM + 128GB  SSD and 2TB partitioned hard disk, NVidia 2GB video


April 26, 2013, 11:32:44 AM
#38
I agree there should be some sort of visual cue that the operation is complete, though I am unsure having the poly line selected after being joined is the best solution.

In most cases having the polyline selected upon completion would be beneficial.  Unfortunately I can think of plenty of circumstances where it would not.  Lets say you had 300 separate objects that need to be joined, having to deselect the object then re select the tool would be a PITA. It also would not be consistent with how the other modify tools behave.

Keep in mind F7 selects the last object that has been created/modified.

This is something that we will continue to discuss internally, as I have a few other ideas.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 12:15:00 PM by turbotech »

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Rip Fowler
IMSIDesign LLC


* April 26, 2013, 12:58:02 PM
#39
Thanks Rip.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 01:17:15 PM by DonCW »

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DonCW

2017 Platinum
Light Works Plug in
Windows 10
There's so much to learn and not much time left to learn it.