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OT: Pc upgrade
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* July 07, 2019, 04:05:17 PM
#50
Yeah I just got an email from AMD direct, the new amd ryzen cpus look the goods. Will get back with more details soon on my expected upgrade of parts.

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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.


* July 08, 2019, 02:36:58 AM
#51
Jeff take a look at this article
https://au.pcmag.com/amd-ryzen-9-3900x/62721/amd-ryzen-9-3900x?amp=1

Also this one from forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/antonyleather/2019/07/07/amd-ryzen-9-3900x-and-ryzen-7-3700x-review-old-ryzen-owners-look-away-now/

Gotta admit that its a blur between whay Ive read aboiut the 3900x v 3950x. The latter still yet to ship in September. Which way are you leaning with the cpu and why?

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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.


July 08, 2019, 03:41:05 AM
#52
The 3900X is running neck and neck with the Threadripper 2950X, so I'd like to see how the 3950X performs.  The 3950X uses a lower base frequency, but its boost frequency is a bit higher and both will automatically switch into boost mode where indicated (and supported by the motherboard, memory and cooling).

Just comparing thread count times clock frequency (for a simple figure of merit on processing power) indicates the 3900X is a better value (the extra processing power of the 3950X doesn't match the extra cost), but it's still so much better than the Intel offerings at this time.

I once saw a custom rig using 27 (new at the time, but old now) SATA SSDs plugged into a RAID controller that supported booting.  It was ridiculously expensive, but it booted to the Windows desktop in under 2 seconds.  I'm still inclined towards the 3950X, but the savings on the 3900X could allow a RAID 0 setup on with dual NVMe SSDs on a PCIe 4.0 motherboard for blazing fast boot ups at pretty much the same cost.

As you can tell, I'm a bit iffy on the selection right now.


Jeff

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July 08, 2019, 03:54:53 AM
#53
I was inspired to look up the price of the NVidia Quadro M6000 (the top of the line GPU card from 2016) to see what the price drop would be from its then-US$6000 price range.

As I expected, it can be had on eBay for less than $600.

The thing is, it may not be worth it.  The current RTX 4000 model is less than US$900 and is significantly better.  A comparison can be seen here: https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-Quadro-RTX-4000-vs-Nvidia-Quadro-M6000/m716215vsm36278.

Something to consider.


Jeff



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* July 08, 2019, 09:45:14 PM
#54
Im keen to see a review of the 3950x v 3900 before I purchase too.

Given that Vlad said in a prior post something like the rendering is multi core enabled for tcw, do you think its likely to be better long term value for the 3950x?

I cant find a suitable water cooler atm, as most are just air cooled with fins and heat absorbing pipes any ideas here?

Check this link for amd preferred motherboards. https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/X570-AORUS-XTREME-rev-10#kf

What Im curious about is that one or more sites that Ive visited say that the 570x motherboards are full size or something along those lines, are you reading the same info?
Therefore should we be considering a tower case?

From your last post thats a heavy wack to your back pocket for that gpu,  is it worth it?
Im still interested in the quadro 2000.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 01:36:05 AM by Darryl W »

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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.


July 09, 2019, 02:51:26 AM
#55
Given that Vlad said in a prior post something like the rendering is multi core enabled for tcw, do you think its likely to be better long term value for the 3950x?

Vlad said that thread count is useful for the lighting and rendering in both Lightwave and RedSDK.


I cant find a suitable water cooler atm, as most are just air cooled with fins and heat absorbing pipes any ideas here?

From what I've read, the 3900X and 3950X will come with a heat sink already attached (or at least in the box).  The CPUs will automatically enter boost mode, but maybe not all the way if the power supply, memory and cooling do not support the higher speeds.


What Im curious about is that one or more sites that Ive visited say that the 570x motherboards are full size or something along those lines, are you reading the same info?
Therefore should we be considering a tower case?

Careful... it's the 'X570' motherboard specification.  The '570X' motherboard is a specific Corsair model motherboard (the Crystal 570X).

As for the X570 motherboards, they are mostly full-size ATX, suitable for a tower.  ASRock has one micro ATX (mATX).  There may be other manufacturers; you'll just have to do a search.


From your last post thats a heavy wack to your back pocket for that gpu,  is it worth it?

Again, per Vlad, the GPU is used for 'realtime' modes, including wireframe and, I presume, Draft as well as Hidden Line, plus when "Use GPU" is activated for RedSDK in Quality or Advanced modes.  I do a lot of stuff in Draft mode, so the GPU will be used a fair amount.  It's also a hedge against the future.


Jeff

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July 09, 2019, 10:48:11 PM
#56
Intel's new lineup of CPUs has been leaked from a Chinese website. The specifications are not as good as the new AMD CPUs (not as many cores and still running at 14 nm), which is probably why they are listed at such a low price.

https://wccftech.com/intel-10th-gen-comet-lake-desktop-cpu-lineup-leak-lga-1159-socket-rumor/


Jeff

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* July 10, 2019, 02:11:16 AM
#57
Yeah x570 and 570x gotta watch those typos. Im getting close to finishing my design project and Im getting restless wanting to test all my renders prior to animation.

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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.


July 10, 2019, 03:12:20 AM
#58
And then there's this to consider:

This is pretty exciting news, because knowing AMD, the 64-core[128 thread] Threadripper CPU will probably be priced in the $2500 to $3000 range, making it one of the most affordable workstation processors around with this many threads. Considering Intel’s 18-core retails for around $1800, this is going to be an absolute steal for the retail professional. This processor is also going to be great for homegrown server setups and computing clusters – the applications are practically endless.

https://wccftech.com/exclusive-amd-is-working-on-a-monster-64-core-threadripper-landing-as-early-as-q4-2019/


Jeff

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* July 10, 2019, 04:33:11 PM
#59
https://www.anandtech.com/show/14516/amd-16-core-ryzen-9-3950x-up-to-4-7-ghz-105w-coming-september

Priced at $749.00 wow that's a bargain, whereas the intel 7960x is US$2500.00+


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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.


* July 11, 2019, 02:41:12 PM
#60
Multi-threading in TurboCAD is used only in LW / RW for lighting and ray-tracing in non real-time  modes. For such tasks, you need to choose a processor with the largest possible number of cores. (Multithreading is used in a number of places:  Vlads response.

Jeff can you clarify what "non real time modes" mean?

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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.


* July 11, 2019, 04:48:53 PM
#61
Jeff from the list at the bottom which motherboard do you think is best?
https://www.anandtech.com/show/14516/amd-16-core-ryzen-9-3950x-up-to-4-7-ghz-105w-coming-september

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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.


July 12, 2019, 04:14:56 AM
#62
Multi-threading in TurboCAD is used only in LW / RW for lighting and ray-tracing in non real-time  modes. For such tasks, you need to choose a processor with the largest possible number of cores. (Multithreading is used in a number of places:  Vlads response.

Jeff can you clarify what "non real time modes" mean?

Pretty sure those are the ones where you start it and go get a cup of coffee, so Quality and Advanced.

Did a bit of experimenting.  The GPU is used by RedSDK for Hidden Line and Draft modes; OpenGL and Lightworks use the GPU in Wireframe (but Native doesn't use additional processors from what I've seen).


Jeff

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* July 12, 2019, 06:43:09 PM
#63
I just went through the exercise of looking at graphics cards. I was going to get and RTX 4000 to replace my GTX 1070. What I found was there was no advantage to getting a Quadro card. You would be better off getting the RTX 2080 which is faster and cheaper.

I was looking for something to drive my 10bit 27" displays but it ends up none of my graphics, drawing, cad whatever software does 10 bit per channel output. If you use something like Photoshop that supports 10 bit with OpenGL, then you would need a Quadro ( or AMD FirePro ). Consumer cards only support 10 bit in full screen games ( if the monitor supports it ).

The software I have that supports GPUs all run fine on the GTX 1070.

For me, until the software I use gets up to speed, a Quadro makes no sense.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 06:44:42 PM by Joel »

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* July 12, 2019, 08:36:41 PM
#64
From reply #55

Jeff you said "Vlad said that thread count is useful for the lighting and rendering in both Lightwave and RedSDK"

Did you mean Lightworks instead?

Im guuna order my parts Monday wirhout the 3950x, with an x570 motherboard. Then wait till the cpu becomes available here in oz. Can I post an updated list of parts for you to check?

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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.


* July 12, 2019, 08:38:56 PM
#65
Hi Joel I will leave that upto those that are a little more experienced with the gpu cards, thanks for your post.

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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.


July 13, 2019, 12:18:54 AM
#66
Jeff you said "Vlad said that thread count is useful for the lighting and rendering in both Lightwave and RedSDK"

Did you mean Lightworks instead?

Yeah, sure.  ;)

Im guuna order my parts Monday wirhout the 3950x, with an x570 motherboard. Then wait till the cpu becomes available here in oz. Can I post an updated list of parts for you to check?

I'll take a look at what stands out.


Jeff

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July 13, 2019, 12:29:43 AM
#67
I just went through the exercise of looking at graphics cards. I was going to get and RTX 4000 to replace my GTX 1070. What I found was there was no advantage to getting a Quadro card. You would be better off getting the RTX 2080 which is faster and cheaper.

Where is your source material for this conclusion?


Jeff

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System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


July 13, 2019, 01:39:39 AM
#68
And... it's good not to be an early adopter.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-amd-ryzen-3000-bsod-error-fix,39847.html

From the article: "Some early AMD Ryzen 3000-series adopters have been experiencing random WHEA (Windows Hardware Error Architecture) errors that are crashing their systems with Nvidia GeForce gaming graphics cards. With the help of the affected users, Nvidia was able to collect enough information to replicate the error, and a hotfix should arrive soon."


Jeff

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* July 13, 2019, 07:36:01 AM
#69
Part of it is my own expertise.  I work as an EE and design Workstations for a living. In the past I have done graphics, and memory subsystems, currently I do CPU and power subsystems, and I have a better than average understanding of what impacts performance in a system. The short answer is always, it depends on the type of workload your apps have.

As far as my recent investigation into a new graphics card. Besides TC, I run a lot of photo editing and drawing software. I really wanted to take advantage of my 10bit displays.  When you look at consumer graphics cards, they only support 10bit in full screen games. This has been asked and confirmed multiple times in various NV and AMD forums. Even though there may be an enable 10bit check box in the driver setup, when it is used is limited. This is one of the differentiations used between consumer and pro graphics.

When it comes to the pro graphics like Quadro and FirePro, mostly what people are after is ISV certification. This means the drivers have been thoroughly tested and vetted by various software vendors and are pretty much guaranteed to work for that application, consumer type software makers don't do this.

When it comes to using the GPU, both cards ( GTX and Quadro ) make this available, both support. With my older gtx 1070, I can watch in task manager that TC and one of my other programs actually utilize the GPU. I looked at various benchmarks and the RTX 2080 constantly out performs the RTX 4000.

So I will circle back to 10bit, because of the things I do, 10bit display would be real nice, and I would have gladly bought an RTX 4000. Problem is, 10 bit display is not a transparent thing, the software has to be written to do it. Both 10bit output and GPU support. I contacted the vendors that do the software I have and none do. One said they were working on it ( GPU support and possibly 10bit output ), but for now, none do.

None of my software does ISV certification or 10 bpc output, the ones that support GPUs work fine with the GTX cards.

That is how I concluded that a faster RTX 2080 would likely be a better choice than an RTX 4000 today.




I just went through the exercise of looking at graphics cards. I was going to get and RTX 4000 to replace my GTX 1070. What I found was there was no advantage to getting a Quadro card. You would be better off getting the RTX 2080 which is faster and cheaper.

Where is your source material for this conclusion?


Jeff
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 02:37:16 PM by Joel »

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* July 13, 2019, 02:29:11 PM
#70
Jeff

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-9_3900x-vs-intel-core_i7-9900k,6225.html

Winner: AMD

Without a doubt, anywhere the Ryzen 9 3900X can use its cores and threads fully, it’s the better productivity based CPU. If the applications used are not heavily threaded, the i9-9900K shows off its prowess. As time goes on we should see an increase in core use by software, so the AMD CPU should have a longer lifespan in particular with multi-threaded applications.

Power Consumption
The 3900X is a 105W part, while the i9-9900K is listed as a 95W part. But Intel and AMD have two different ways they measure TDP, and neither is an actual measurement of power consumption, and were never meant to be.

I guess that TDP is an acronym for electric power consumption and that when deciding to purchase the Power supply unit PSU, whats the best way to determine required power in watts for our collective use?

Does a one size fits all cover it or should we be somewhat consevative, point is as I see it that it makes no sense to get a 1000w psu when the total sum of probable max required watts is say 650w.

Finally does a 1000w psu always pull 1000w from the power outlet irrespective of current drawn or is it variable in current drawn?
reason is we are going solar soon.

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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.


* July 13, 2019, 02:49:40 PM
#71
When picking a PSU, pick one that's a little bit bigger than you anticipate ( margin ) and if there is anything you might want to upgrade to in the future, consider it too. Say you think your system will run peak at 650W, a 750W PSU ( conservative approach you mention ) would be a good choice. 

A 1000W PSU does not always draw 1000W from the wall. It will just meet the load requirement you have at that moment. So, if your system is running at say 500W, that is what the PSU will be drawing from the wall ( plus some for efficiency losses, that's where an 80%, 90% PSU comes into play )

Does a one size fits all cover it or should we be somewhat consevative, point is as I see it that it makes no sense to get a 1000w psu when the total sum of probable max required watts is say 650w.

Finally does a 1000w psu always pull 1000w from the power outlet irrespective of current drawn or is it variable in current drawn?
reason is we are going solar soon.

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* July 13, 2019, 03:23:54 PM
#72

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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.


* July 13, 2019, 03:29:12 PM
#73
When comparing results from the last toms hardware link that I posted, Im anticipating an increase in productivity of around 250% increase in render times when compared to my i7 6700. This is an educated guess at best but am I going over the top here?

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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.


July 13, 2019, 03:35:14 PM
#74
What does PBO+AOC mean?
from the https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-9_3900x-vs-intel-core_i7-9900k,6225.html

PBO is Precision Boost Overdrive; it means the 3900X will automatically go into Boost mode as needed.

Keep in mind that this will increase system power draw, and should be incorporated into the power supply choice.


Jeff

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July 13, 2019, 03:37:49 PM
#75
When comparing results from the last toms hardware link that I posted, Im anticipating an increase in productivity of around 250% increase in render times when compared to my i7 6700. This is an educated guess at best but am I going over the top here?

Not enough info to tell, yet.  While you will have many more cores/threads, you still have to access system memory, so its speed, along with the motherboard speed, will have an effect.  We will need a list of components and basic specs to hazard a guess.


Jeff

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* July 13, 2019, 03:41:34 PM
#76
That was somewhat conservative but for the most part based on i7 6700 v ryzen 9 3900x benchmarks.

Heres the link to the aniticipated motherboard, sure I know that you said leave the motherboard to the last item, but almost everything is relative to the mb now.
https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/X570%20Taichi/

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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.


July 13, 2019, 03:46:03 PM
#77
Power Consumption
The 3900X is a 105W part, while the i9-9900K is listed as a 95W part. But Intel and AMD have two different ways they measure TDP, and neither is an actual measurement of power consumption, and were never meant to be.

I guess that TDP is an acronym for electric power consumption and that when deciding to purchase the Power supply unit PSU, whats the best way to determine required power in watts for our collective use?

Does a one size fits all cover it or should we be somewhat consevative, point is as I see it that it makes no sense to get a 1000w psu when the total sum of probable max required watts is say 650w.

TDP is an initialism (it's not pronounced as a word, such as RADAR).  Depending on whom you ask, it means thermal design power or thermal design profile and is an indicator of the power usage in watts.  Keep in mind that TDP is probably listed for non-Boost mode, so extra current drain has to be assessed (haven't seen any info on that).

Finally does a 1000w psu always pull 1000w from the power outlet irrespective of current drawn or is it variable in current drawn?
reason is we are going solar soon.

No, these are digital switching units; they will draw a little more power than they provide, but not the full 1000w all the time.


Jeff

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* July 13, 2019, 03:49:02 PM
#78
https://www.mwave.com.au/product/asrock-x570-taichi-am4-atx-motherboard-ac25045

This link is much clearer and has more detailed technical info at the bottom of the page.

Edit/ the memory techs are a bit confusing, I dont know which series to get. Mattise, Pinnacle Ridge or Picasso
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 03:53:31 PM by Darryl W »

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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.




July 14, 2019, 04:00:16 PM
#80
Heres my AMD list of parts todate:
GPU
https://www.mwave.com.au/product/leadtek-nvidia-quadro-p2000-5gb-workstation-video-card-ac03631

IMSI has not been forthcoming on the efficacy of Quadro over GeForce.  I have seen TurboCAD make use of the GPU in my GeForce GTX 970 card in Draft mode, so you may want to consider the advantages of the RTX 2070 over the P2000 for about the same amount of money.  https://technical.city/en/video/Quadro-P2000-vs-GeForce-RTX-2070

As I understand it, Quadro provides an advantage with OpenGL supported in hardware, but that's not what I use.


Jeff

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System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


July 14, 2019, 04:38:03 PM
#81
Samsing 970 evo
https://www.mwave.com.au/product/samsung-970-evo-plus-1tb-nvme-13-m2-2280-3bit-vnand-ssd-mzv7s1t0bw-ac21127
Corsair Memory
https://www.mwave.com.au/product/corsair-vengeance-lpx-32gb-2x-16gb-ddr4-3200mhz-memory-ab69770
Motherboard
https://www.mwave.com.au/product/asrock-x570-taichi-am4-atx-motherboard-ac25045

The AsRock motherboard has PCI Express 4.0, but the Samsung SSD is only PCIe 3.0.  Maybe consider this: https://www.newegg.com/corsair-force-mp600-1tb/p/N82E16820236548?item=N82E16820236548&ignorebbr=1&source=region&nm_mc=knc-googleadwords-pc&cm_mmc=knc-googleadwords-pc-_-pla-_-solid+state+disk-_-N82E16820236548&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpavpBRDQARIsAPfTwiyEGlTZRBWgsEdaAhzoBWgC6rRygrKh6GEy2sm_JXJS2eN6TpGDIOgaAnK-EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


This memory is slightly more money for the same amount of memory, but will handle the Ryzen Boost mode overclocking much better: https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-16gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820232268?Item=N82E16820232268&Description=ddr4%204000&cm_re=ddr4_4000-_-20-232-268-_-Product.  Also, you may get better performance with a 4x8GB configuration than with 2x16GB (I admit I couldn't find anything to support this right now, but I have read that it has an advantage in other sources).


There are cheaper X570 PCIe 4.0 motherboards to help balance out the cost of going with the better components.  The motherboards on this page have 4 RAM slots and dual M.2 slots supporting RAID 0/1/10 (although how you could support RAID 10 with only 2 cards while maintaining performance confuses me).  With 5000 MB/s, I doubt we will notice the difference in performance between a single NVMe card with no RAID and two in a RAID 0 setup, so maybe hold off on populating the second slot (and using RAID 1 when you do).

https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007625%20601334781%20600029965%20600567794%20601302898%20601334779

As I have said before, you have to add maximum current drains on each power supply line to properly select a power supply.  Just adding total power is the wrong way to go.


Jeff

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* July 16, 2019, 06:11:28 PM
#82
Got it now re max power for each discrete device. Ive been flicking thru some amd 3900x articles and I came across 1 where the guy says hes getting a 300% decrease in rendering time via blender. Put another way its 3 times quicker to render, it was a rendering for animation. I can only hope that the 3950x is even better.

Tried to find the arcticle again but no success yet. Are you waiting for this cpu?


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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.


July 17, 2019, 12:44:13 AM
#83
Got it now re max power for each discrete device.

Close, but not quite.

There are four voltages in an ATX computer's power supply: +3.3V, +5V, +12V and -12V.

For each component of your system, including the motherboard, CPU, GPU(s), drives (solid state and spinners), memory, fans, add-in cards (network, Wi-Fi, etc.) and external devices (backup drives, etc.), determine the maximum current draw for each voltage (this includes overclocking - or Boost mode - on the CPU).

Then, choose a power supply that can comfortably provide enough current at each of those four voltages.


Jeff

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System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


July 17, 2019, 09:37:10 AM
#84
An interesting article on power consumption by the new X570 motherboards for the Ryzen 3000-series CPUs. Be sure to read it all the way through.

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/294596-amds-x570-chipset-draws-so-much-power-its-warping-cpu-comparisons

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TC Pro Platinum 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016 & 2015 (all with LightWorks & RedSDK) & V21
System: i7-5820K @ 3.30GHz, ASRock X99 Extreme4, 16GB DDR4-2133 RAM, Gigabyte GTX 970, Samsung NVMe SSD 950 (256GB), Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) SP1


* July 17, 2019, 02:23:08 PM
#85
Yep read all and maybe some UEFI updates will fix these power draws, still very keen to try out the new cpus. Im thinking that by the time the 3950x comes up for release that any issues will be resolved. The upside for me is that if any issues are unresolved from the AMD side then Intel cpus may well come back in price to more affordable levels, of course without the cores and threads which really got me interested in the 1st place.

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Daz
TCW V21, 2016-2019 PP, Animation Lab V5, TurboPDF V2-V3 & LightWorks Rendering Engine mostly.