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Dimensions
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* September 12, 2018, 02:37:44 PM
Hello again,

I am trying to get some dimensions on a drawing.

I can't get a dia. on the second hole (10mm) or a radius at the end (50mm). I can't even select either of the objects.

After about 5 redraws I managed to get the tongue on the bottom. I did this by making a workplane on the bottom and then creating another profile to extrude. I had difficulty with this as simple extrude did not want to pull it out. I did it by specifying the size (-5mm) in the properties dialogue of the pop up toolbar. Perhaps this is the wrong method, but it was the only way I could get it to work.

Is this the reason why I can't select or dimension the 10mm hole? although is was on the main piece which was extruded, and appeared good when rendered, i could see through the holes. Likewise with the radiused end. I do note however that if I select the hole which goes through the tongue I get the options to select  extrude ( the top part) or Circle ( the bottom part). TC is clearly seeing these as two separate objects rather than one. Likewise with the main part and the tongue. Should these be joined? I tried 3D Boolean add but that did not work. In reality the part will be machined from a solid plate.

I also notice that the dimensions come from the top of the extruded part rather than the bottom, which would have been the original workplane. Is this significant?

What is the significance when the object outline turns pink?

TC21 Pro.

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* September 12, 2018, 03:28:45 PM
#1
You cant dimesion on the extruded circles, and you did have most of the 2D circles on layer 0 and have turned it of.
Basically you should never turn of layer 0 as TC use it for a lot, only if you have a spesific task that needs it turn of for whatever reason you can do, but turn it on as soon you are finish.
The small circle you give a thickness of -5, in other Words it was 3D and you cant dimesion it, so i make a copy in Place, and dimesion that after i set the thickness to 0
I also made a layer for the 2D circles and put them all in there and turned that layer of when everything was dimesioned, i also set the workplane on top of the plate and placed the 2D circles on that workplane so that all the dimesion's was on the same level

The magenta is to show you that you have selected a Object

Torfinn

Torfinn

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* September 12, 2018, 10:18:08 PM
#2
Go to "Options / ACIS" and turn on "Degenerative Faceting" at the top of the page, then the Dimension tools should work on circular 3D objects. When "Degenerative Faceting" is off, TurboCAD sees the circular objects as a multitude of 'facets" instead of circular.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2018
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Windows 10, 64-bit


* September 13, 2018, 01:12:36 AM
#3
That work on a Solid, not a Surface like in this case

Torfinn

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* September 13, 2018, 10:29:08 AM
#4
Thank you all.

Torfinn,
The object on layer 0 is a completely different and separate part of a larger assembly. I may have to reduce the size of this because I have to get a scale on it somewhere. I am not sure on my methodology with this, but my understanding of layers is that a new layer should be assigned to a new part.
This prompts a question that popped into my head when I was in bed. Should I create separate parts of an assembly as a completely new file and then transfer (copy??) them across. This gives then gives rise to the question regarding alignment of all the components.

Layer 0 was turned off because I was trying to dimension the base and I was trying to avoid confusing myself.

Perhaps my methodology is wrong. I was thinking that I should create each part or sub-assemble on layer 0 and then when it is complete move it all en-block to a new layer.

The small circle is a hole which extends right through both of the objects. I drew the whole thing as a 2D sketch with both the holes, and then did a simple extrude to 25mm. Both holes were present and clear. I rendered it as a solid and I could see through them. Now I know what the pink outline means I can see that they both select, one I can dimension but the one I am having trouble with although it shows the top half as selected, but not the bottom part which is in the tongue.
It only went pear shaped when I turned it over, created a workplane on the bottom and drew in the tongue. Because of it's position one end has a part arc on it. It is this tongue I had trouble with. It would not do a simple extrude, and so I specified -5mm in the properties. Is this where I went wrong?

As it is not possible to dimension from an extruded circle I can draw in another circle and dimension from that. Seems a bit of an untidy way to do things though.

John,
Degenerative faceting is turned on.

I am out tonight so wont be able to look at this until tomorow.
Thanks again.
Marcel

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* September 13, 2018, 12:26:23 PM
#5
That work on a Solid, not a Surface like in this case

Torfinn

I was looking at the "Drill Jig3.tcw" file posted in the LTE problems topic which has a Solid Part. Posting files with the exact same name doesn't help, as I thought I already had this drawing downloaded.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2018
Designer, Deluxe, Expert, Basic, Platinum
RedSDK enabled, except in 2018
Windows 10, 64-bit


* September 14, 2018, 12:08:09 AM
#6
John,

I have just been back to the question asked about LTE.
I was trying to decide which was the best workspace. The default line tool was a problem in the default workspace. I tried LTE and could not find how to end a process.
It is a steep learning curve for me, and although there are plenty of instructional videos, and I have the 2D and 3D training guide there is little mention of what are probably common problems. Early on I suffered with drawings that would zoom out, but not in. I learned that this was called 'space dust', there is advice and remedies on how to find it, but because I didn't know what caused it I managed to compound the problem to the point of making it irrecoverable. I now know that all drawings, open up with a line tool, and random mouse movements and clicking in trying to select an item draw little lines out in space which can't be found. This was most frustrating.
So as I had read that this behavior does not exist in the LTE workspace I thought I would try that. LTE of course has it's own peculiarities, and so I proceed.
It didn't seem logical to post a problem in an existing thread, so I started a new thread, however the drawing remains the same, other than it has progressed a little.
By way of another minor problem, this time with the forum. I cant find how to bring up my threads, only new replies. I have to go via the home page and search.

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September 14, 2018, 02:26:51 AM
#7
... I tried LTE and could not find how to end a process.

LTE is designed to operate the same AutoCAD LT, so if you cannot find the instructions on how to end a process in the documentation or here, then maybe on the AutoCAD forums.


Jeff
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 05:29:08 PM by Jeffin90620 »

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* September 14, 2018, 04:04:31 AM
#8
In AutoCad it's Enter, and so is it in v 21 LTE also

Torfinn

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* September 14, 2018, 10:32:23 AM
#9
Marcel.   As you are using pro, the first bit of advice is, Use ACIS solids where possible, Not TC surfaces.  (right click an object, choose properties, and 3d in the dialog).

With TC surfaces, 3D items using curves (arcs and circles (cylinders)) are simulated by polyline extrude, this means they are faceted and the resultant 3D object is no longer a circle or arc (even if the initial circle or arc is still there).  and as a result you cannot dimension a 3D circle or 3D arc which is a polyline (lots of flat edges).  As you have discovered you can still dimension the initial 2D stuff though.

ACIS.  (with degenerative faceting turned on).  This will allow dimensioning of 3D arcs / circles EXCEPT if a 2D profile (arc / circle (cylinders) etc.) is given thickness to make it 3D.  Thickness certainly has its used, but not if things are to be easily dimensioned. If you are going to dimension objects, use extrude rather than thickness.

ACIS.  (with degenerative turned off).  This doesn't allow dimensioning of 3D arcs / circles (cylinders). though still allows dimensioning on all 2D objects.  I suspect Most people add 3 point circles or 3 point construction circles, so they can add dimensions anywhere required.   

With respect to your drawing, The problem you have with the rectangular part at the bottom, is that it was not either, a closed 2D profile, nor a has the ability to be used with compound profile option (because the ends overlap).   so when given thickness it just created a few flat surfaces not a solid object.  As can be seen in 'Not closed pic' attached.

I do not know the reason for using TCSurfaces instead of ACIS,  so I'll assume it is accidental.  In the attached TC drawing I reset things to ACIS, and re-drew some things, The existing stuff I put on a layer called 'temp1'. I moved things off layer '0' (I called it a 'washer'), this was so layer '0' can be left turned on.  if you check the drawing now, and see the difference from your existing stuff on 'temp1'. you chould see the new bottom part is solid and dimentionable rather then thickened surface (with degenerative faceting turned on).

Note - having degenerative faceting turned on is not without problems.  Snapping correctly can sometimes be awkward, and it can look like part of the drawing is missing.  though after a while one gets used to it.

No idea if the above helps or not.

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* September 14, 2018, 01:19:40 PM
#10
Jeff,

Thank you. I am not sure ; still; which workspace to use. I am back using the default workspace having discovered the reason for one of the major problems (not able to zoom back in) and so now I can avoid the mistake; mostly; or recover from it.
I do appreciate all the help and expertise that is on the forum, and the help given thus far.

All,

With regards to the dimension problem above, I have found a thread on here whilst searching for another problem, which explains why I couldn't dimension the larger radius. The solid curve was drawn as a series of facets, I turned this on (checked the box in properties) as was suggested. However I went into properties again and unchecked the use faceting box for rendering, and lo-and-behold I can dimension the radius at the end. why this did not work originally with faceting off I have no idea. However the dimension was a mirror image which threw me, but  jiggling around with the workplane and UCS plan I got it the right way round.

Now the weird bit. I think this has something to do with workplanes, Whilst trying to work out why the tongue would not do a Boolean add to the rest of the base I managed to select the other circle and dimension it. This time the orientation was correct, however it is on the top face of the object along with the edge dimensions, and it really went bad. The holes disappeared and I couldn't figure what I did.
So I started again from scratch. This time I drew the solid, did an extrude to 20mm moved the workplane to the bottom, drew out the land either side of the tongue and did a boolean subtract. Yipee!!! That worked, except the dimensions were mirrored, Move the workplane and it fixed that.

TC seems to arbitrarily change layers without reason, this has caught me out several times.
I have another workplane which is being used to construct the next component, the body. Having checked in the design director as it is the last one created TC seems to default to it.

Andy,
I think I arrived at your point in the latest iteration of the drawing. However I have degenerative faceting turned off, yet it still dimensioned the arc. I couldn't do this previously. I started again because I couldn't get the tongue to form a solid, so I formed it bw reducing the thickness eithr side of the tongue. That seems to work.

You guys out there have no idea how greatfull I am for the help. The answers are out there, but not knowing what terms to use in a search usually returns 'no matches found'. Oh and for your information, I am reverse engineering a drill grinding jig for an old English tool grinder. the tool grinders are plentyfull, but the jigs are as rare as hens teeth. The intention is to modify the unit so as to grind drill points and other tools.
Thanks again

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* September 14, 2018, 02:00:05 PM
#11
Please see attached video >

This is what I get in Version 21 pro.
Circle with “thickness” classified as “Solid” > Degenerative faceting On or Off > Diameter dimension works.
Circle with “thickness” classified as “Surface” > Degenerative faceting On or Off > Diameter dimension doesn’t work , So > Use orthogonal dimension and snap to quadrants. Quadrants are recognized, for radius snap to “center’ then quadrant.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 02:04:58 PM by Dean »

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September 14, 2018, 02:47:17 PM
#12
This is what I get in Version 21 pro.
Circle with “thickness” classified as “Solid” > Degenerative faceting On or Off > Diameter dimension works.
Circle with “thickness” classified as “Surface” > Degenerative faceting On or Off > Diameter dimension doesn’t work

A Circle in Surface mode is not truly round; it just has an arbitrary number of line segments that approximate a circular shape.  As such, there is no information for the Diameter / Circle command to work.


Jeff

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* September 15, 2018, 08:36:59 AM
#13
Dean,
Quadrant points never occurred to me. Old school drafting convention was to always dimension holes as a diameter and chamfers etc. as radii. some habits die hard!

Jeff,
Is that a throwback to the calculus I learnt all those years ago? or just the way a computer has to deal with it? I saw all of the facets that were formed in the wireframe whilst struggling to dimension it.

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* September 15, 2018, 04:19:11 PM
#14
Dean,
Quadrant points never occurred to me. Old school drafting convention was to always dimension holes as a diameter and chamfers etc. as radii. some habits die hard!

Hi B,
Yeah  :) Old school I would draw section views depicting a 3D object and or Dimension in Viewports.
Now I dimension only in viewports, These days you need to be flexible  :)
You can use the diameter dimension in a viewport on your object  ;)

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"What do I know, I'm still learning"..
Windows 7 64 bit HP > on a stock HP laptop with 4gb-2.4 GHz.Turbocad 2018-2017, TurboCad Platinum 21.Using Lightworks and Redsdk, Anilab lab 5. ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4500/5100


September 15, 2018, 05:37:44 PM
#15
Is that a throwback to the calculus I learnt all those years ago? or just the way a computer has to deal with it? I saw all of the facets that were formed in the wireframe whilst struggling to dimension it.

Nope... no throwbacks involved.  Surface mode is an early form of modelling that taxed the computers of the day.  Early forms of it would only be visible from one side (simply disappearing as you adjusted your vantage point).

The vertices are actual reference points, while the triangles formed by each triplet of vertices approximate the actual surface.  Smaller triangles form more accurate models, but increase the amount of processing time.


Jeff



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* September 18, 2018, 11:04:05 AM
#16
>>>SNIP
>>>
You guys out there have no idea how greatfull I am for the help. The answers are out there, but not knowing what terms to use in a search usually returns 'no matches found'. Oh and for your information, I am reverse engineering a drill grinding jig for an old English tool grinder. the tool grinders are plentyfull, but the jigs are as rare as hens teeth. The intention is to modify the unit so as to grind drill points and other tools.
Thanks again

Is this drawing from Engineering Graphics something similar to what you're attempting?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 11:05:38 AM by John R »

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2018
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RedSDK enabled, except in 2018
Windows 10, 64-bit


* September 18, 2018, 12:51:03 PM
#17
John,
Not quite. I have a Clarkson tool grinder and would like to be able to grind drills with 2 and 4 facets. The clarkson attachment is  about as rare as hens teeth! and the last one I found for sale was about 4 years ago and sold for about £1000. The geometry for drill points is complicated. The best explanation I had was grinding the form of the inside of a cone one one face. This jig is similar to Clarksons own, which appears to be a modified Potts Jig. I am making further modifications to take an ER32 Colet holder (because I have one) and also to take a clamp to hold lathe tools so I can easily grind accurate angles for oddball screw threads, Buttress threads being one of them.
There are plenty of these Clarksons about, also known as a Mach tool grinder in the states, I could make one from paper sketches, but, I really need proper working drawings, and hopefully I can see most of the problems before cutting metal.
I have not managed to get my head round TC properly before, only used it for 2D plans. This seemed to be a good real-world exercise. An assembly with multiple parts, most of which are fairly simple. What throws me mostly is the manipulation of the workspace and the snaps. Just spent hours trying to figure out how to get a construction line a set distance above the bottom of the base for the axis height of the grindstone.
There is a YouTube video of a Clarkson Drill Grinder Atachment by George Hegg

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* September 18, 2018, 03:58:51 PM
#18
Thanks for the movie link.

I stopped using their $Construction tools back around version 5 and went to using normal lines, circles, etc. on a layer called "Construction". Easier to select and edit, plus they don't run on forever. I also use the 3D Polyline tool to draw construction lines between workplanes.

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John R.

V17—V21, 2015—2018
Designer, Deluxe, Expert, Basic, Platinum
RedSDK enabled, except in 2018
Windows 10, 64-bit